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Post by yankoo on Jul 1, 2021 0:43:50 GMT -6
I really do get what you're saying here. You do have a unique voice, and we do appreciate that. I think a big part of the problem was just the challenge of the hook itself. I scored you pretty low on technical and artistic, so I'd like to clarify. I love your writing style itself. That stream-of-consciousness sort of thinking really works for me. My issue wasn't that you used it, but just that it was all we got in the entry. We never left the character's head. You honestly (and bravely) attempted several tough writing strategies all at once. Definite kudos for that. It's tough to do that style in first person because "I" becomes repetitive really, really fast. It's tough to accomplish a hook in 200 words. And it's tough to establish a strong character within their own mind. I feel like the problem with the entry (from the hook angle) is that you didn't give us any of the character's experience and observation. If you mix in some action and setting into what you have, maybe even some dialogue (talking to his/herself) it would shape up into a much stronger piece. There were too many unknowns--who is "they" and who is "I?" Male? Female? Old? Young? We need a little piece of character development here to understand that. So you could do something like: They think I am a god. They think I perform magic, like the wizards from their stories. With a flick of my wrist, I send their dreadful books tumbling off the shelves onto the library floor, setting off a massive dust cloud. My thundering sneeze shakes the room.
And, they think it's their duty to cheer, gasp, tremble, kneel, bow, dance, and sing songs; (remove) only to please me. Another flick, and the shelves themselves come crashing down. Bear with me LOL. I just threw your character into an old library. Made them destructively angry with severe allergies. Maybe you envisioned them in a different mood and setting. But we'd have no way of knowing that unless you put those bits in. So what you have itself is not so bad. It's just that the setting, character development, and suspense-driving action is missing. And those are essential components of a narrative hook. Also, there were several grammatical errors that scored you lower on technical. Punctuation use (commas, colon, semicolon) and such. Keep an eye on the Resources forum because I'll be posting a bunch of threads explaining those grammatical rules that will help. Sometimes it's hard for regular critiquers to appreciate writing style when they spot a glaring misuse of a comma. We all admittedly tend to get a little tougher on that during contests. I think maybe the anonymity factor lets us be a little more truthful. I hope you'll try again. Expand this out a bit and throw some of those elements into it and post in the fiction forum. The cool part about writing is that one doesn';t have to follow a certain pattern. When i read something i like to know it's new, original, genuine, natural...i don't really care about commas. A comma is a pause in speech, right? So my character can make that pause whenever he feels like, for example as if he's thinking of the right next words he would use. I don't really know where i so evidently misused the comma.I get what you mean about the setting and not being very clear about who/what and where. I was hoping my hook would be the voice, not the action. All the rest would've followed. Still, to give such low grades, i find it rude, as if saying "it's not even half-decent". And you know writers don't really like critics(btw). What is the purpose really? Maybe you don't like it, but others do. Maybe you don't understand it, but others definitely do. Doesn't mean you have to say it's crap. Luckily for me i'm not easily affected. All the best! |
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ScienceGirl
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Post by ScienceGirl on Jul 1, 2021 4:49:06 GMT -6
I’m really sorry for hurting your feelings. I don’t think anyone intended to do that. When I first started entering contests people wrote things like “if this were a book, I wouldn’t have made it past the first page.” Ouch! That might feel rude, but it’s not rude. It’s just that person’s honest comparison of my entry for the scoring. And I credit those comments for getting me to where I am today. I’m on LegendFire because I want all my friends to have the same success that I’ve enjoyed, and I know that means they need me to be a tough critic no matter how much it stings.
Publication might not be your goal, and that’s fine. There are a lot of people who write for the fun of it, and they certainly have permission to write however they choose. But believe me, when you start sending out queries and looking for an agent, comma placement matters. Especially in a saturated market.
In a contest, when you put yourself out there for this kind of critique, it’s a little different. Especially on a critiquing forum where people are trying to help each other become better writers, and especially for categories called “technical” and “artistic” where people are looking to see if your entry matched the rules of the contest. You should expect this kind of honesty in that setting. It’s not about liking or not liking the piece.
I’m a former professional editor for a small publishing company, now freelancing. I’m multi-published in both fiction and technical writing. I have high standards, and I push people because I see what they can be instead of where they are. And in a writing contest when we give marks for technical writing, I’m going to score based on my knowledge of the craft. That’s not rude. That’s what helps people grow their writing into something amazing. Nothing makes me happier than to see my editing clients getting their stories into print and selling books, or to see my friends achieve their goals as writers.
So, I hope you’ll look at it differently and try revising and posting again in the fiction forum. You’ll still get honesty from people there, but it won’t be as blunt as it would be in a contest.
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Post by ScintillaMyntan on Jul 1, 2021 9:58:18 GMT -6
Just saying I don't know where yankoo made any comma errors either. (I work for a newspaper, where proofreading and editing are part of my job). Yes, commas are sometimes optional, and I don't see even one spot where they missed a required one or had one where it shouldn't be.
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ScienceGirl
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Post by ScienceGirl on Jul 1, 2021 13:34:36 GMT -6
Just saying I don't know where yankoo made any comma errors either. (I work for a newspaper, where proofreading and editing are part of my job). Yes, commas are sometimes optional, and I don't see even one spot where they missed a required one or had one where it shouldn't be. Scintilla, please don’t take this as snarky. Certainly not the spirit I'm intending. I just want to be clear, so here’s a full punctuation edit. Please note that I’m not commenting on any other spelling or grammatical issues. Just the comma, semicolon, and colon errors. Yankoo, I will go through this line-by-line with explanation of each rule because I want you to understand my comments are coming from a reputable place. I’m not just making all this up to be mean. First, it’s important to note what part of the writing world we’re operating in. (Or in which we are operating,  if I want to be grammatically nitpicky). Technical writing and fiction writing are different beasts and governed by different rules. I spent years in technical writing prior to fiction writing, and it’s an adjustment of thought. You can get away with so much more in that arena than fiction. Before I get into all this, here’s the Purdue OWL Quick Rules for Commas, one of the most reputable sources you’ll find. I’ll be referring back to these rules by number within the edit. QUICK GUIDE TO COMMAS
Rule 1. Use commas to separate independent clauses when they are joined by any of these seven coordinating conjunctions: and, but, for, or, nor, so, yet.
Rule 2. Use commas after introductory a) clauses, b) phrases, or c) words that come before the main clause.
Rule 3. Use a pair of commas in the middle of a sentence to set off clauses, phrases, and words that are not essential to the meaning of the sentence. Use one comma before to indicate the beginning of the pause and one at the end to indicate the end of the pause.
Rule 4. Do not use commas to set off essential elements of the sentence, such as clauses beginning with that (relative clauses). That clauses after nouns are always essential. That clauses following a verb expressing mental action are always essential.
Rule 5. Use commas to separate three or more words, phrases, or clauses written in a series.
Rule 6. Use commas to separate two or more coordinate adjectives that describe the same noun. Be sure never to add an extra comma between the final adjective and the noun itself or to use commas with non-coordinate adjectives.
Rule 7. Use a comma near the end of a sentence to separate contrasted coordinate elements or to indicate a distinct pause or shift.
Rule 8. Use commas to set off phrases at the end of the sentence that refer back to the beginning or middle of the sentence. Such phrases are free modifiers that can be placed anywhere in the sentence without causing confusion.
Rule 9. Use commas to set off all geographical names, items in dates (except the month and day), addresses (except the street number and name), and titles in names.
Rule 10. Use a comma to shift between the main discourse and a quotation.
Rule 11. Use commas wherever necessary to prevent possible confusion or misreading. Nothing wrong with these sentences from a punctuation angle. Good start. 1. The main comma issue here is that you’ve used a semicolon in a place where a comma should be. Proper use of a semicolon would be between two independent clauses (i.e. could stand alone as full sentences) “only to please me” is not an independent clause and thus does not fit the semicolon rule. (Not a comma rule per se, but this link should help: owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_writing/punctuation/commas/commas_vs_semicolons.html)
2. The “And” at the beginning of the sentence is an introductory word that comes before the main clause. I could argue from Purdue OWL rule 2 that a comma belongs after the “And,” although others might counter that this would be optional since it’s only a single word. This is the same reason a comma belongs after “however” and “although” at the beginning of a sentence. In the newspaper proofreading world, Scintilla, I am sure this is likely an optional rule. A key difference between technical and literary writing is that technical is meant to be read more quickly, so pauses can be abandoned.
3. The third issue goes back to the phrase “only to please me.” Only is an adverb, which means it modifies another word or phrase in the sentence. “To please me” is an infinitive phrase. You could have just as easily written they think it’s only their duty to please me vs. it’s their duty only to please me. No comma needed to separate that phrase.
4. The Oxford comma debate! Yes, it’s completely optional to put a comma between dance and sing. It’s maybe not such a big deal here, but let me explain the difference from a pro-Oxford viewpoint. Without the comma, you’re implying that dancing and singing MUST be done together. If you include the comma, these are separate acts. This isn’t something I’d knock you for. Just want to make sure you understand. By rule 2, there should be a comma after the “But,” although again some believe this is a rule that can be bypassed. The official rule that is that it belongs there.1. This sentence follows rule 2 with an appropriately placed comma after Occasionally.
2. There are two possibilities to consider with the rest of the sentence.
a) Just as with “only” above, “all for” is adverbial. It’s akin to “because of,” and it’s modifying the verb take. You would say "Occasionally, they take a leap of faith because of" so it should be "they take a leap of faith all for". No comma.
b) Another way to consider it is that "all" is being used as a noun. All is for the vain hope of gaining favor. So considering "they take a leap of faith into a slew of spears" being an aside, it would be okay to put a comma before and after the phrase. But take it away and that makes your sentence "Occasionally, all for the vain hope of gaining favor with me." So if you go that angle and use the comma, you'd need to add a verb there. 1. This is a classic example of Rule 1. Two independent clauses separated by a conjunction, so there should be a comma following death.
2. It’s a misuse of the ellipses. Ellipses are mainly used for quotes when you leave out part of what’s been said. For example, my daughter (teasing) just told me I was a “poo-poo stupid head” because I wouldn’t go out in the deluge of rain and buy her powdered doughnuts. I could say she told me I was a “...stupid head” and leave out the poo-poo part. They can go in the middle, beginning, or end. They can also be used to show a character trailing off in speech. The idea here is that the character loses what they are saying in their thought and sort of interrupts themselves. In other words, you shouldn’t use ellipses for a complete sentence thought. So you need a period after amusement rather than ellipses. No punctuation errors here. Proper use of no comma before only, so kudos there.1. Ah! The dreadful dashes. Dashes are used to separate a phrase that’s meant to be in parenthesis. They’re one of the most commonly misused punctuations in writing. You should use commas before and after the no. Their need, no, their desire
2. There should be a comma between back and now. Classic rule 1. Two independent clauses separated by a conjunction.
3. If you intend the dash to be in that last sentence, you’re saying I blend in now (brown, black and grey). If it doesn’t belong in a parenthesis, you need a comma. 1. There should be a comma after first. This is rule 2.
2. This sentence is too long. Several different sentences blended into one by commas. It would be better to put a period after singing. Then, you could say “But, the more complex…”3. The comma before “and” in this case is again part of that big Oxford debate. The way it’s divided now, piercing eyes and nothing else are paired together. If you put the comma after eyes, then the eyes become part of the list of what the poet has become. There’s a slight difference in meaning between “piercing eyes and nothing else” and “piercing eyes, and nothing else.” Again, not something I’d count off for, but just realize that your choice in placing that comma can give readers a different impression.This is a sentence fragment. The comma is fine here. It doesn’t bother me to have the fragment because you’re in the character’s deep POV and that's how thoughts work. So appropriate use here. One simple trick to fix the fragment (not necessary, just if you wanted to) is to say The harder I labor, the lesser my accomplishments. Now, I labor gives the sentence a subject and a verb so it’s not a fragment.1. The rule says that a colon can be used to give a list of items, but not when that list is incorporated into the flow of the sentence. It needs a comma, but beware that when you put in the comma, it’s going to need a pronoun to go with it. I have one solution left. There is one solution left. Somethign liek that.
2. Appropriate use of a comma around “for a while at least”
3. I’ll give you kudos for not placing a comma before until. A lot of people put one there when it doesn’t belong.
For a 200-word piece submitted to a contest where a writer is given marks for technical skill, I personally feel like that's a lot of punctuation violations. And that's without me even getting into the word choice, sentence structure, flow, and such. I know it hurts to hear it, but I stand by my techincal score. Hope this helps you understand! |
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Post by yankoo on Jul 1, 2021 13:44:19 GMT -6
You really didn't hurt my feelings, so don't worry. but you do agree that there is no one right way to write. It's more about what you write and whether the people enjoy reading it. I've read books that were difficult to read and i still read them because i really liked what they were saying. I've also read books that were nicely, neatly written, everything perfect, but i didn't want to continue reading them because the content was not for me. I appreciate your advice and i'm sure you know more than me about the industry. I guessed already that it's crazy competitive out there and trust me, my main focus in writing is to be understood and make the readers happy. Really, don't feel guilty or anything. Hopefully we both learn at least a bit from each other  |
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ScienceGirl
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Post by ScienceGirl on Jul 1, 2021 13:55:48 GMT -6
Good  And I do agree. People can write terrible books with perfect grammar. It's just that in this forum we're focused on helping people reach their publishing goals and perfecting the craft. So when you put something up on here, just go in knowing that's our overarching goal. That's why we call ourselves a critique forum and not just a writing forum. We don't just sit back and read what everyone posts; we try to make it better. (Ha ha I slipped that little semicolon in there on you! It took me five years of trying to figure that one out). I just don't want you to stop posting because I hit you hard for the grammar. In the regular fiction forum, we don't score it so tightly. In a contest, expect that technical smackdown. I can't tell you how many times I've experienced the same thing myself. That's why I enter the contests. Even after years of study, I still have a lot to learn. I always glean tons of valuable information from everyone's comments. I really hope you'll revise and post a bit to the fiction forum. I promise not to wield my bloody pen!!! I do think you had an amazing, original idea and I'd love to see some character and setting development embedded into that thought. It was a super interesting choice for a mythical creature. |
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Post by ScintillaMyntan on Jul 1, 2021 15:49:26 GMT -6
Scintilla, please don’t take this as snarky. Certainly not the spirit I'm intending Don't worry; I didn't! I was just saying I didn't think any of the punctuation was wrong myself. I'm not trying to be defensive or anything. I was honestly just wondering where the punctuation would be unsound because it looked fine to me! What I was thinking here was that sometimes semicolons are used as a sort of 'next-level' comma when it would make the relationship between the phrases clearer. Here commas are being used to delineate items of a list. The semicolon then separates the list from the rest of the sentence, even though "only to please me" is not an independent clause. I saw this one as yankoo artistically separating what would have been part of a compound sentence into a separate sentence. Something like "They try to please me, but this does not please me." The latter clause wouldn't have a comma after 'but' if it were all one sentence. So it stays that way when separated out. Point taken with the independent clauses, but as for the ellipsis, the speaker is trailing off. I personally prefer using em dashes for that, but it works. It's in his voice. I don't agree with either point about dashes. I have seen dashes used in literature in those ways, and when I looked it up, I found this on thepunctuationguide.com: "A pair of em dashes can be used in place of commas to enhance readability. Note, however, that dashes are always more emphatic than commas." That is what's happening with the "no" in this piece. And according to Purdue OWL, "They can also be used as a substitute for “it is, “they are,” or similar expressions. In this way they function like colons, but are not used for lists of multiple items." So it's like saying "I blend in now, that is, (I'm) brown, black and grey." Points taken about the comma, but that is a beautiful sentence, almost poetic, and its length and twists and turns are what give it that effect. I like it from an aesthetic standpoint. Just as a native English speaker, I don't feel this reads as a fragment at all because 'to be' is implied. My mind fills in the 'are.' "The harder my labour, the lesser my accomplishments are." I actually did not know that colons can't be used this way! I'll try to get that right myself in the future. |
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Post by Alatariel on Jul 1, 2021 16:14:20 GMT -6
Great conversation here! I'm lurking and wanted to chime in with my very limited knowledge and personal thoughts on the subject of grammar. Many hard and fast rules have become more fluid over the last few years. This is especially true in fiction, experimental or not. Comma placement is less strict, the use of sentence fragments, ending with a preposition...many of these things are extremely flexible. Yes, we want our writing to be as clean and clear as possible for publication. But some things (in my opinion) shouldn't be seen as written in stone.
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ScienceGirl
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Post by ScienceGirl on Jul 1, 2021 18:27:49 GMT -6
Scintilla, please don’t take this as snarky. Certainly not the spirit I'm intending Don't worry; I didn't! I was just saying I didn't think any of the punctuation was wrong myself. I'm not trying to be defensive or anything. I was honestly just wondering where the punctuation would be unsound because it looked fine to me! Good! I'm honestly a really nice person LOL. Alatariel is right, and Scintilla is right, and if I were Oprah, everyone would get a car. A Tesla, even.  But seriously, here's where all our views come together for me. In a contest, I'm going to evaluate people by the rules because that's what is consistent for technical marks. The only problem is that in a forum where everyone is trying to be a better writer, not everyone knows all the rules, and we have a global pool of backgrounds with different rules. l'm from Eastern Kentucky, where "yallreadytoeat" is a single word. So, how do we define consistency? I'm not sure we can. But that's okay! It's fine to differ and disagree with each other's feedback. Diversity is what keeps our site alive. I didn't agree with all the comments on my piece, either. But they were all still valuable. It's always helpful to see how something is received by others. And Yankoo, one of the things I do when scoring technical is follow a rubric. Something like 5--No grammatical errors, 4--a couple of grammatical errors that don't change the meaning 3--several grammatical errors that don't affect readability 2--the ratio of grammatical errors to the size of the piece is high and 1--it would have to be really bad to warrant a 1. Since this was only a 200-word piece, writing clean is more important. Yes, Ala, grammar can be fluid, but in the cutthroat world of agents and publishing and what I like to call "pimp marketing," it's not that fluid. Grammar is one of those things they use to "separate the wheat from the chaff" so to speak, just like there's that weed-out Chemistry class that discourages some would-be students from ever becoming doctors. Once you're IN, grammar is incredibly fluid. I love David Baldacci, but some of his latest books are terribly written. You can tell he's just trying to churn out the next story before a deadline. But the market is so saturated it's really hard to break in with grammar mistakes. You have to be at your best game to get to the top of the pile. Years ago, an acquisitions editor from Love Inspired looked over my manuscript on behalf of a published friend. She was really nice about her rejection. Offered a lot of helpful advice. One thing she told me is that she'd have to spend so much time editing my manuscript, and they had several other submissions that were more "print-ready" and needed fewer edits. Scintilla, in the technical world, a lot of the rules don't matter. EVER I'm sure that's true for newspapers, too. I've edited professional articles for scholarly journals. Written some, contributed research to others. You'll find my name on several nuclear physics papers. Bleh! I think in those papers I could have recited the phone book because no one cares. I don't even understand half the words I wrote myself LOL. They just want to know the science so they can cite it in their own papers. I think when they edited my dissertation, there were only a handful of SPaG edits in 150 pages. I KNOW I made more mistakes than that. I can't even bear the thought to go back to it now because I'm sure it reads terribly. The dash rule is one of those things that varies vastly between writing worlds. In newspaper writing, dashes are essential. You edit those for the spacing a lot of times, and dashes are a good way of creating dramatic effect without a lot of words. In the fiction world, publishers and professional editors hate dashes. It's the same reason they discourage the use of exclamation points. While grammatically correct, they would consider it over-emphasis. One editor I worked with even called it "The Jane Austen effect." So for someone self-publishing, it matters WAAAAYYY less. Honestly, since most publishers don't provide a ton of marketing these days, I'm not sure the benefits of going that route. All of my traditionally-published friends have left their companies except for one. I sell most of my books at tables, but I've made a LOT more money since I split from my publisher. Although, I have to say that reviewers will bust you on a grammar rule faster than anything. |
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if I want to be grammatically nitpicky). Technical writing and fiction writing are different beasts and governed by different rules. I spent years in technical writing prior to fiction writing, and it’s an adjustment of thought. You can get away with so much more in that arena than fiction.
And I do agree. People can write terrible books with perfect grammar. It's just that in this forum we're focused on helping people reach their publishing goals and perfecting the craft. So when you put something up on here, just go in knowing that's our overarching goal. That's why we call ourselves a critique forum and not just a writing forum. We don't just sit back and read what everyone posts; we try to make it better. (Ha ha I slipped that little semicolon in there on you! It took me five years of trying to figure that one out). 
