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Post by pelwrath on Nov 20, 2023 12:05:12 GMT -6
The agent/publisher industrial complex totally controls the traditional publishing market. I’m not referring to the editing, formatting, design, and other services that are there to help with an authors writing. Those are important and valid services and deserve their place and recognition in the writing industry.
Here’s what I an referring to. The majority of publishers only accept agented submissions. These agents are all searching for the next Hunger Games, Harry Potter, Twilight, GoT that they can pitch. They get paid 15% when the author is signed, I get that. It better be 80-100k words, fit into a three scene format with incidents at regular intervals. New authors should write stand alone over a series as you have no name recognition.(ie-Steven King could publish a grocery list.)
Agents wont touch stories too long or under 50k. They want standard easy to digest stories in a set format that gets mass produced.
I’m a storyteller, I don’t conform because I can’t write the way I write under those rules. I’ve nothing but love and respect for those of you who do that. I wish I could.
I don’t want to be a bland piece of mush for people to read. I write for those who enjoy my story and characters . Those who think that something I wrote was ingenious, not the book/story per say but something that was done inside the covers.
Why this opinion? I’ve watching videos and reading a few articles about the writing process. You all know my very noticeable shortcomings comings as a writer. Well some of those appear to be sacrosanct in the writing community as MUST do. Again, I’m not referencing spelling, punctuation, grammar, and some POV issues as that can be worked around.
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Post by RAVENEYE on Nov 20, 2023 13:20:30 GMT -6
Yep, writing, according to these terms, is a business. A book is a product. A writer produces a product. Like cars or furniture or anything else that must be marketed to be noticed and make money. And yes, it sucks that the traditionally published author makes very little of the overall profit on his/her/their product. I was reading a really depressing post on LinkedIn recently about the money aspects of a writing deal. An author's advance may $100k, but by the time agents, marketing campaigns, taxes, traveling expenses to speaking/signing engagements, etc, all take their toll, the author may make $23k for that year. Ain't no author gonna be able to pay the bills on that, regardless of how great the advance is. Better be praying for movie deals and royalties that defy all expectation. Point is... I'm not sure why so many authors seem shocked by this. I admit, part of me hates it. But the other part is like, "Write the first draft or two for myself. Then write the last draft for publishing. Make it fit, as well as I can, the expected pattern. Keep MY DRAFT for me to enjoy." In truth, this is the same complaint artists in every age have uttered. Painters with glorious skill could only ever make enough money to eat if they had a patron, usually the church, and painted what the patron wanted them to paint, usually religious images. Is that what the painted WANTED to paint??? Probably not. But that's what bought the bread in his belly. And yep, it's too bad the world works that way, that art for art's sake can't make us a comfortable living, but them's the apples we sowed, when we gave our everything to this profession, so that's the harvest. So ... is this post just for venting purposes? EDIT: I found the article outlining the paycheck info I mentioned: www.nolandediting.com/post/self-publishing-income-on-the-rise
Particularly this bit:
In other words: if authors don't make back that advance, they don't get royalties until that advance is met/surpassed. WTF. The "advance" is in effect, a loan, a bet, on your future sales. Creeps me out.
And on the self-publishing end, when I read in this article what some self-pubbed authors are making per year, I want to cry and sob and beat my fists on the ground. HOOOOW are they making this much???????
Particularly this bit:
WHAT AM I DOING WRONG?????????
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Post by pelwrath on Nov 20, 2023 13:35:32 GMT -6
Some venting but more the total lack of knowledge I had about writing. Yes, the first draft will be terrible and slowly improve with revision. The same with my writing skill, also improve slowly but the sheer amount of writing knowledge that I’m only recently comprehending. I’ve seen videos where people don’t like those who’ve never had a creative writing course. Would that have helped? Of course but when did it become an implied requirement. The expectation that a writer recognizes and understands the scope of POV, deep thought, narration v dialogue, tense, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd character pov, that I’ve exposed myself to improve my writing. Has much of that been mentioned here, yes and I feel my lack of knowledge of english that I still don’t understand. I’m of the opinion I’ve burned some bridges here.
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Post by RAVENEYE on Nov 20, 2023 13:38:04 GMT -6
Actually that article I linked to is a fantastic reality check for all of us in this industry.
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Post by pelwrath on Nov 20, 2023 14:01:39 GMT -6
I was never under the illusion that I’d make any money. I found writing a relaxing and enjoyable thing to do, I want to return to that feeling. Without the help from those here and the first site, I doubt my books would be as good as they are. I’ll check that link out.
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Post by Alatariel on Nov 20, 2023 14:10:05 GMT -6
Yea, trad publishing is a really seedy overly-complicated mess. There's so much nepotism and incestuous book deals, the same authors and their co-horts getting published, the same tropes and plot-lines being written over and over. A spectacularly unique novel can turn into commercial crap really quickly.
However, there have been some wonderful books traditionally published in recent years. Ones that have gotten great recognition. But those seem to be the exception.
Self-publishing has new respect among a lot of people. Trad publishers are picking up self-published works that do well, like Lucy Score and Carissa Broadbent. They both got massive book deals from trad publishers after selling A TON of books self-publishing. That is kind of the dream, in my opinion.
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Post by ScintillaMyntan on Nov 20, 2023 22:39:30 GMT -6
I was thinking, in over-optimistic terms, that I wanted to get my NaNo novel traditionally published eventually. I don't care about the money; I have a full-time job and no aspirations of quitting it. I just want to feel like a 'real' writer who makes part of the body of modern literature. I'd be okay with making $0 if it meant people actually read me and I've significantly contributed to culture.
But maybe that's not realistic. I think my story, if it's any good to begin with, is really relevant to modern society, so there's that going for it. But it's probably not something with much mainstream appeal, and I think it's going to end up under 60,000 words, which might be too short. Maybe a small press would take it?
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Post by Alatariel on Nov 20, 2023 22:58:47 GMT -6
I was thinking, in over-optimistic terms, that I wanted to get my NaNo novel traditionally published eventually. I don't care about the money; I have a full-time job and no aspirations of quitting it. I just want to feel like a 'real' writer who makes part of the body of modern literature. I'd be okay with making $0 if it meant people actually read me and I've significantly contributed to culture. But maybe that's not realistic. I think my story, if it's any good to begin with, is really relevant to modern society, so there's that going for it. But it's probably not something with much mainstream appeal, and I think it's going to end up under 60,000 words, which might be too short. Maybe a small press would take it? Yes and yes! I love your writing, you always find such fascinating themes to explore. I think you might be surprised about the mainstream appeal. A lot of people have the same kind of thoughts and quandaries that your writing tends to address. And it always makes me think in different ways, which readers tend to enjoy. Under 60k is totally okay. 50k is typically the minimum for a novel, but it could be a novella and traditional publishers still publish those, too. I think there are plenty of small presses that would be interested. Beware of hybrid publishers who ask you to pay to be published, that's a scam.
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Post by pelwrath on Nov 20, 2023 23:07:07 GMT -6
Scintilla, by all means go for the trad publishing and see what responses you get. Not all publishers require an angented submission.
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Post by pelwrath on Nov 20, 2023 23:16:08 GMT -6
Raveneye, I don’t think you’re doing anything wrong.
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Post by saintofm on Nov 25, 2023 5:18:21 GMT -6
Brandon Sanderson covers this, and I think Genna Maracie covered it on their youtube channels (Sanderson on his BYU lectures). There are lots of pros and cons to both, but it can be complicated. Go for one of the Big 4 publishers you have to do it there way, and they won't take submissions without an agent. Agent are also picky. Part of the reason for this is they get tones of hopefuls and try to get through as much as possible. Like OP said, they want the Next Twilight or Hunger Games because they want something that will make money. They are investing time and money into you and if it doesn't pay out it messes with their bottom line.
Independent has become easier to do, especially with the internet, but you have to do all the work on your own, and work on the Cover Art, the Marketing, and more.
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