slbutler
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Post by slbutler on Oct 7, 2021 15:29:47 GMT -6
This is a question I have wondered, because for the longest time I did not. I just lively and moved through my life without any real guiding principle or belief? For some people this gap is often filled by their religious traditions, but in a word where such things are becoming less and less followed, it seems to me the more important philosophical inquiry becomes. I have been fortunate that my PhD research has very much led me down a long, challenging and very deep path of philosophic inquiry about many topics.
Do you have a guiding principle or set of beliefs that help you to decide what is the right path for you?
For me, the question is a complex one, and one that has had to be broken down to such an extent that all foundations have since been rebuilt and restructured since seriously considering the following basic questions. Each of which are fundamental to understanding how we ought to live.
The Epistemological Question - Is there a limit to human understanding? If so, what might those limits be, and how far can we truly rely on our imagination and mathematics to fill in the experiential gap? At what people does our understanding of reality and the world around us degrade into an anthropomorphic fantasy? But this question can also go one step further, and we can also ask, what is the limit of our own control over our own fate and the fate of others? In short, where should we focus our time, energy, and attention within the bounds of reality?
The Ontological Question - This question cuts right to the core of who are we and why are we here? In a biological sense this is easy enough to define, but that tells us nothing beyond the fact that we are biological creatures with the capacity to think and act in moral and ethical ways, we are the only animal as far as we know that sees beauty at all, and yet all these things we are capable of function without. Think Narcissist's and Sociopaths. But this question is not really just asking for a scientific explanation of what a human it, it is asking in a more general sense: what does is mean to be human (in a moral, ethical and aesthetic sense)? Think of the term 'humanity' or 'humane' here and consider what exactly we mean when we are asking people act in a humane way? or when we ask people to have regard for our humanity?
The Axiological Question - This question is about value. And I do not mean financial value, but value in a metaphysical sense. What things do we value and why? This question flows from the last and is crucial for helping us to direct where exactly we should target not only our moral and ethical considerations, but also our cultural, and aesthetic consideration. And by aesthetic I do not mean merely the appearance of things, rather I am speaking generally of the importance of beauty in our world and for our psychological and spiritual wellbeing. In a general sense we should, how it is we come to value things at all in this world? Why we value them? And we must consider if our value and appreciation is appropriate or not. For instance modern human society in my mind at least seems to have an unhealthy attachment with utilitarian and instrumental forms of value often disregarding other (often more important value considerations). Namely, we are all too often attached to either the material value (financial value) of an object, or its capacity to provide more material value (utility value). These two things, dominate all discourse in the media, and in policy making. Yet the most crucial forms of value for our way of life, our culture, the moral and ethical fabric of society, the beauty of our surroundings (both natural beauty, and the beauty of our architecture) - these things have all bee sacrificed and disregarded as unnecessary or somehow less important than the financial bottom line.
In any case - this is a very philosophical thread, and I wonder if anyone else has give much thought to these sorts of questions or if they have questions and philosophical positions of their own that they would like to share on such matters? If you have never considered these sorts of questions before, what is your reaction or response? This is not a thread for debate, I am hoping it wont become that, but a thread for discussion and thought and consideration of all opinions and thoughts on such matters?
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Post by Alatariel on Oct 7, 2021 17:46:54 GMT -6
Oh man, we could sit and discuss this for hours. It's exactly the type of discussion I love to have with my husband, too. My spiritual journey is long, but I'll summarize by saying: I was raised in a high demand religion and recently decided my belief if this religion (and in God in general) is no longer something that brings value to my life, but rather brings a toxic amount of perfectionism and moral judgement. I was raised to believe that this one particular religion was the ONLY correct belief system and that without it I would never be able to be with my family in the afterlife. This is bothersome, to say the least, because that's using a fear-based model to coerce people into obedience. I have since gone through a massive faith transition. This religion wasn't just my belief system, it was my LIFE. A core part of my identity. Many people who have left this high demand religion have had a difficult time piecing together their identity afterwards. I didn't have this problem. Instead, it felt like I could finally BREATHE and become the person I was always meant to be. It helped that through the years I've cultivated a diverse group of friends and chosen family who've helped my new true self thrive. I no longer fit into the mold the church wanted me to fit into, and so I broke free and left it behind. Now, to give my opinions and thoughts on your questions: Do you have a guiding principle or set of beliefs that help you to decide what is the right path for you?Yes. After leaving the high demand religion, I had to figure out what I believed now. After. I also needed to become okay with saying "I don't know" and not having all the answers. My guiding principle is simple: Do no harm and live a life of love. (That last part is from my good friend Bird) This is what I teach my children. We make our own life choices, but if our choices harm another then we should make a different choice. Harm isn't always intentional, but impact is more important that intent and we need to understand that and learn how to make amends. Many of the beliefs of my old religion were harmful to others. They did not align with my core belief of "do no harm and live a life of love." I also believe that we are connected to others through love, not blood. I feel like consent is a huge thing many high demand religions do not include in their "families are forever" teachings. What about abusive parents or siblings? What about harmful family members? Are they forever linked to us in eternity? Where is consent? I think we choose who we're linked to for eternity, if that even is a thing. Is there a limit to human understanding?That's a hard question, but yea, I think so? I feel like the energy inside of us, the thing we call a soul, is much larger and more complex that what's in our bodies. Call me nutty, but that's what I think. I think we are also limited by our experiences and knowledge. Like when we try to write alien worlds, everything is informed by our own understanding of carbon based life-forms and the living creatures on this planet. We're trapped by the current scientific understandings of physics and quantum mechanics. I think it's impossible for us to think beyond these limitations unless we are exposed to new ideas and concepts. Even then, sometimes we can't comprehend anything different that what we already know and have experienced. What does it mean to be human?Star Trek has been trying to answer this for decades. Seriously, though, it's always asked "what makes us human?" It's why Data and the holographic doctor from Voyager and Odo are such compelling characters. They challenge us to ask these questions. I don't have any unique answers, just going back to my core philosophy of doing no harm. That's being humane. Doing our best not to cause pain in another living being. Is this always possible? No. Should we still strive for it? Yes. The Axiological question made me nod vigorously. We do attach material value to things and people when that is not the type of value we should be considering. We see humans as being valuable is they can provide something for society. This is not right, in my opinion. A human has value because they exist. That's it. Existence is enough for me to value something beyond more than their productivity, their material worth, or "what can they do for me?". It's why I have the political beliefs that I do and why I hate money. Without money and wealth, I think we could create beautiful things and make spectacular scientific discoveries that could benefit mankind and help us move closer to doing no harm as a species.
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slbutler
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Post by slbutler on Oct 7, 2021 18:40:48 GMT -6
Oh yes - these are certain questions that could be considered for hours. Or in my case years, because my brain is just like that I suppose. I do like your philosophy and it is not so different from my own which essentially flips the golden rule - "Do not do to others what you would not have them do to you."
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Post by ScintillaMyntan on Oct 7, 2021 21:02:26 GMT -6
Hey, good thread. It's good for me to take some time to write this out so I can connect more with what I believe and put it into words more. What sort of PhD research is causing you to ponder questions like these?
I would say I believe two main things:
1) It's up to us to find beauty and meaning in our lives. 2) We should live with compassion.
About the first thing
Recently I've been fascinated with near-death experiences. These are spiritual experiences people have when they're clinically dead, which really seems to imply something beyond the material. Yet, these experiences differ so much that there's not much to learn from them. Some people who had NDEs learned that the universe is uncaring and cruel, others that it's infinitely loving and love was all that matters; some meet their god, others discover that nothing but themselves ever existed! And of all these people, most are totally convinced what they saw was the real thing.
That makes me feel living people — even ones who have been dead a few minutes — might never know the true nature of the world. Not only does empirical science fall short, but so do reason and spirituality.
If we want to live our lives fully, there's not much advice to go on because the world is so ambiguous. We don't know why we're here or if there's a reason at all. Yet there are many people who experience beauty and meaning, and that's because they imposed their own sense of beauty and meaning. They dedicated themselves to something that makes them emotional, took up a religion, or made a narrative of their lives. Usually life just pulls us along, but everyone has to make these conscious decisions at one point or another. Since there's no findable truth, whatever we decide upon is fine as long as we are compassionate. Yes, I'm very influenced by existentialism!
About the second thing We should be kind and loving. Maybe that principle comes from above, or maybe not. All that matters is that conscious beings have the ability to suffer, so the best we can do is try to stop or prevent suffering. Again, we don't know if anything's inherent, so the closest we can get to an inherent good is what we want and what we feel. Psychology shows that humans instinctively want and give love. The way to act on that is to love ourselves and others.
A bit about power and freedom
To answer what it means to be human, part of it is free will. We are not free in every way; we're still animals made of matter. But we are free in that the biggest thing that controls us is our society, and we have some ability to change society. And I don't just mean changing government policy or whatever.
Society is made up of discourses. For example, we find a forest pretty. That's partly due to biological instinct but also partly because our art depicts forests as pretty, and our culture has a bunch of discourses about nature, like nature being pure, nature being a contrast from the restrictiveness of civilization, nature being more real and true than what is manmade, and so on. Culture is very powerful like that. Again with the near-death experiences, culture is powerful enough that for a lot of people, it literally affects what they see or learn when they die.
Those discourses are being created and altered whenever we communicate. So when we write, make art, or just say something, we are playing a small part in constructing our society. So there we go; I just related this back to writing on a writing site.
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slbutler
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Post by slbutler on Oct 8, 2021 17:43:00 GMT -6
What sort of PhD research is causing you to ponder questions like these?
Firstly thanks for the response - it was an interesting read. The answers to all of these things is in some sense that humans project onto the world meaning and value. But that meaning and value is not formed at random. It is formed in part from culture certainly, but it is also formed through our direct experience of the world around us. For instance that is a lot of research that shows people are far more likely to care about environmental issues if they live in close proximity to nature. Understanding and experience affect so much about our behavior that is hard to deny a certain reality to beauty in the world especially since beauty does tend to attach itself to real world properties like, balance, uniformity, symmetry, the golden ratio. It is of course us that sees that beauty, and of course we look at the world with imperfect perception. But that perception seems to improve with more exposure and greater understanding is a phenomenon well know to artists. The same principles apply to natural beauty i think. Is beauty really there in nature? In a sense it is, the properties we call beautiful exist most certainly weather or not we decide to call them beautiful. The golden ratio is a real thing that a lot of people see as beautiful. Of course there are those that cant or wont, just as there are those that are blind to right and wrong (sociopaths, narcists) there are those that are blind to beauty. The saying "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is only true to a certain extent, in that we must in a very real sense feel "beauty" not just experience it, this not to say that there are not people who become so attached to particular forms and shapes and then they are bastardising the term beauty - like when people become obsessed with a particular body shape. I will leave a short quote from Holmes Rolston that first got me thinking about this point so many years ago. "Consider an analogy, I am asked, 'Why are you ethical toward your wife?' I reply, 'Because she is beautiful,' Certainly, beauty is a dimension of her life, but it is not the main focus of her value. 1 respect her integrity, rights, character, achievements, her intrinsic value, her own good. In some moods, I might say that all these features of her person are 'beautiful', whereupon her 'beauty' would have become more or less synonymous with her 'goodness' (in the traditional philosophical vocabulary) or her 'value' (in more recent vocabulary). But I would wrong her to value her only in so far as she is 'beautiful', at least in the usual aesthetic sense. Certainly, her goodness is not concentrated in her capacity to produce in me pleasurable aesthetic experiences. That might fail with age or accident. I would also fail her if I failed to enjoy her beauty."As for the question on the PhD - my work is around environmental philosophy and environmental politics primarily. Which naturally involves developing a strong understanding of all these questions. Ultimately any work you do in philosophy at this kind of level must as a pretty well established grasp on all the questions listed in the first post.
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Post by ScintillaMyntan on Oct 9, 2021 17:07:39 GMT -6
Firstly thanks for the response - it was an interesting read. The answers to all of these things is in some sense that humans project onto the world meaning and value. But that meaning and value is not formed at random. It's definitely not random; sometimes meaning and value come to us. There are things I value that I didn't just decide to value; I care about them without having had to do anything. But that's still me doing the valuation. Maybe the arts are intrinsically valuable in themselves. Maybe I in particular was 'put on Earth' to be a writer. We just don't know. All I'm trying to say is that things have value because they have a human valuer, rather the value necessarily being intrinsic or put there by a higher power or something.
Again I think it's possible that value really is intrinsic or put there by a higher power, but it's uncertain. Even if it's not, we can live as though things have value anyway by being the valuers.
I don't think we can safely say that things like symmetry and the golden ratio are inherently beautiful; they may 'just' be beautiful because they are to us. I've listened to a video where a psychologist, I think it was Holli-Anne Passmore, said things in nature cause strong emotional reactions, both good and bad, in humans because we've evolved to react to it for much longer than we've evolved around manmade objects. But I also don't think it matters if there is no inherent beauty. Humans value it, and we're humans, so why not.
It's cool that you study environmental philosophy. I'm interested in the relationship among humans, the humanities, and the environment. In university I did classes on environmental philosophy, environmental sociology, and animal ethics. I can see why you're concerned with what it means to be human.
My current belief about the ethics of the environment is kind of the same as what I said: no one knows if anything has any inherent value. No one knows either whether there is anything metaphysically different between humans and other animals; is our consciousness something special, or are we just the same thing with more intelligence?
On a somewhat related note, I've always been personally super uncomfortable with the idea of machines ever having consciousness. It just bothers me emotionally.
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Post by HDSimplicityy on Oct 10, 2021 2:13:49 GMT -6
Absolutely! The Word of God. Aaannd that gives people a pre-decided idea of who I might be when they interact with me. Oh well, lets see what we can learn. @scintillamyntan My mom LOVES learning about NDE's. Gosh I am typing this after midnight... sorry for typos. Id like to talk more later when I am more awake. I grew up in a non-denominational Christian household my entire life. Many in my extended family are Jesus-followers. After I left the church I grew up at, I had a hard time finding a new church family. For a few years, yeah. I struggled during my last two years of college with that. But I never left my beliefs, despite studying at an extremely secular public university. Basically I had to develop my own relationship with the Lord. Read and study the Word not just in service, but with people in my age ranges and on my own, with family or with roommates. Starting my own path as a young man had me solidify, you know, confirm, and deepen my belief. Then when an opportunity organically happens in a discussion or with a new friend, ask the other person what they think. Get the ball rolling on their side without already forcing beliefs at them. Its not loving doing that. Dang it, though... there is so... sooooooo much I don't know about the Bible. I can explain what I understand, what I think with as little interpretation as possible. Its just... there is so much beauty to Jesus, to God, to the gifts God gives people through the HS, and it is all so tainted by us! What really sucks is how the western church has screwed over so many people! But Im not staying up to type this about the pros and cons of American churches. So... anyway, yes... the Bible is my life's foundation. Its a beautiful book with brutal truths and awesome moments. And it always makes us question what is said and why.
It is important to remember a lot of people don't believe in God, or once did, or do and struggle. I have to learn to be sensitive to that. Sometimes I forget that.
I also love certain other philosophical angles, existential, Chinese proverbial takes on life life philosophy. Others are either wrong or I don't believe them. That said, for me, God is always number one. Always will be being single or when he finally lets marriage become a thing!
Is there a limit to human understanding?Yes. When do we come to that? Not for a very long time.
what does is mean to be human (in a moral, ethical and aesthetic sense)? To have free will, to think, and to even question these. What things do we value and why?Whatever adds intrigue, understanding, curiosity, humor, mystery, power and a way to solve, to logically deduce, to experience, and summarize them that relates to others.
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Bird
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Post by Bird on Oct 14, 2021 18:01:01 GMT -6
Do you have a guiding principle or set of beliefs that help you to decide what is the right path for you?
Yes, to live a life of love. I now must define "love," which is quite a bit harder. This is an exercise that I think is helpful for anyone to do.
Schedule a time to sit with oneself in quiet, without any disturbances, and without one's phone or computer. Have a journal and pen at hand. Breathe in deeply, breathe out, and meditate on the nature of Love. What does love look like to you?
How does love feel like in our body? Where does it sit in our body? How do we express love to others? And when I say love, I mean in our words, our actions, our behaviors, our thoughts. What actions and behaviors do we like folks to do for and with us? How does that make us feel?
Write down the answers to those questions.
Then ask, how can we live our life that honors and respects the autonomy, agency, and life of another being? The path that causes the least harm? How would we want others to live that respects our autonomy, agency, and life?
Write down the answers to those questions.
What we want others to do for us -- that is entangled in how we ought to act toward others. Most of the time when I do this meditation with others, people want to be respected, to be heard, to be validated, to be seen as they truly are, to have their consent and autonomy and agency honored and respected. To build a connection based on trust and mutuality. And I truly believe that that is what love looks like.
The Epistemological Question - Is there a limit to human understanding? If so, what might those limits be, and how far can we truly rely on our imagination and mathematics to fill in the experiential gap? At what people does our understanding of reality and the world around us degrade into an anthropomorphic fantasy? But this question can also go one step further, and we can also ask, what is the limit of our own control over our own fate and the fate of others? In short, where should we focus our time, energy, and attention within the bounds of reality? I believe there is a limit to human understanding in the sense that we cannot ever fully comprehend an alien's (or even my cat's) mind with 100% certainty. For one thing, there is no such thing as 100% certainty. We live in a universe where on the most minute/quantum scale, we cannot 100% understand or know with certainty both the momentum and position of a particle. That quantum fuzziness (as some call it) dictates everything within our universe; it is not due to us failing to understand an attribute of the universe. The particles in our universe simply exist in all possibilities until the act of measurement (or more accurately, observation). That is a limitation we cannot ever breach.
I believe this point is also related to how we perceive our role in the universe, and whether we consider ourselves OF the universe. If we continue this myth that we are somehow "separate" from nature, we will continue to fall prey to this idea that we can do what we want with no consequence, that we can be one hundred percent objective and thus in time know everything, when that simply isn't true -- it's an anthropomorphic fantasy (as you put it). I wrote an essay on this that I will type up here:
"Communality is the communion of subjects (living beings, world/Earth) not objects, and is based in the relationality of all living things and the Earth itself. What is relationality then? It is the relational way of being, knowing, and doing as defined as the socionatural configurations that arise from the recognition of the radical interdependence of all living things, where nothing preexists the relationships that constitute it.
Our atoms come from the Earth, and thus we are interconnected, entangled. As the Earth lives, we live, and we are in communion with all living beings on the planet. We cannot separate ourselves from the Earth without falling prey to the lie of 'individualism.' The lie of 'individualism' teaches that we are all independent, not connected, and are separate from the world and thus can act upon it without consequences (as we are separate from it). This is based on the false dichotomy that undermines much of Western philosophy, that we are separate and thus not part of nature. We cannot ever be separate from nature as we come from it and we live within it and we use it - often in harmful ways for ourselves and the habitality of the planet. This individualistic philosophy severs us from the interdependence of our relationality with the Earth, thus we end us causing extreme harm to ourselves.
So what is a better way to be with the Earth? Relationality, where we recognize that we are not separate from the Earth but interdependent on it and all that live on it. Where we realize we are not objective observers outside the system, but we are entangled IN the system, and thus unable to ever be one hundred percent removed and objective. For example, in Buddhism, we, everything in life, are the result of processes of dependent coarising. Nothing exists intrinsically; everything is mutually constituted. This belief aligns with the results of quantum mechanics, and how our atoms are all constituted of star dust -- Big Bang dust, all mutually constituted, unable to exist without all the universe also mutually existing with, in, and around us. In a sense, our particles that comprise us are entangled with the particles of the universe. From that one starting explosion that expanded outward in all directions and dimensions to form the lattice of superclusters, galaxies, stars, planets, and us. From that one beginning, we were all formed. The universe made conscious in us (and any other sentient beings), burning with a curiousity to know itself.
Thus, we cannot separate ourselves from the universe. Objectivity -- this cannot be done, because true objectivity requires separation and no one is one hundred percent separate from reality. This myth of objectivity poisons our relations; it claims that logic and reason must rule -- as if we can separate ourselves from our emotions, from our unconscious biases, from our prejudices, from our socialization. As if one can separate our minds from our bodies, our bodies from the universe. This simply is not possible in our reality.
Quantum mechanics have shown that the act of observing a system changes the system. The observation is entangled in the system being observed, where the observer becomes part of the system they are observing. When light passes through a narrow slit with no detectors to determine where it will hit and at what velocity, it does not show any interference pattern. As soon as the detectors are added, that act of observing the photons influences the system and the interference pattern appears. The observer becomes part of the system; the observation changed the results by the sure act of observing. Quantum particles are governed by the uncertainty principle, where particles exist (and simultaneously not exist0 in a probability cloud, where we cannot know all attributes, such as position and velocity, at the same time and with the same accuracy. The more precise we measure one attribute, the fuzzier and more 'spread out' the probability cloud becomes for the other particle's attributes. For quantum mechanics, Schrodinger's Equation can show where a particle is 'likely' to be versus 'unlikely' with amazing accuracy. Another interesting feature is how quantum particles' probability clouds smear enough that sometimes they "tunnel" through barriers (Electron scanning microscopes and MRIs rely on this), but they also can become entangled so even when separated by vast distances, they still act in tandem (an example: if one particle is measured in an up spin, the other will change simultaneously to a down spin).
This entanglement is at the root of why our observations influence a system. We cannot divorce ourselves from our own particles and the universe itself. We have to include ourselves in the analysis of reality. We are interconnected and interdependent. We are mutually constituted.
Descartes, a philosopher of Western Europe, separates reality into a dualism: physical stuff (realm of science - physics, chemistry, etc) and mind stuff, that although they may influence each other, they are distinctly separate. This mind/body dichotomy would influence centuries, but in the end can easily be prove false as I show above. There is no separation -- no dualism -- mind stuff and physical stuff are the same, they are entangled and interconnected. Mutually constituted. Each made of the same collection of particles, and each interdependent. We cannot have our mind without our bodies -- what creates a conscious mind? The emergence of billions of particles, entangled, working in concert, where the emergence of a new process (mind-thought) can appear. The particles of our body - of which our brain is of our body -- is necessary for the emergence of consciousness to even exist.
In Indigenous knowledge, Everything is Alive. All things -- animals, people, rocks, rivers, planets, etc - are alive; they are emergent minds that exist because of hte organization and energy of billions of entangled collections of particles. As much as we are dictated by the physical laws of the universe, made of the same particles originating in the Big Bang, the emergence of each of our consciousnesses stems from our unique configuration of collections of particles, and how our behaviors (responses to stimuli) begets our ability to learn, be creative, think, act -- the higher level portion of a nested story that began with a collection of particles.
Thus, the point here is even an observer to a real-time situation is still part of that system they are observing and thus influence the system (even if their action is only to stand in observe). The person cannot be detached from their presence and impact on the system. At best, they can share their subjective experience and cross reference with those present (or recorded analogs or experiment logs from detectors, etc)_ to find commonalities, differences, and shared facts."
As a side note: I love Arturo Escobar's many essays on the Plueriverse, as he and many Latin American theorists and authors explore the fact we actually live in a many worlds world, but because of colonialism and white supremacy, this idea of "one world" has been forced on us, causing many a genocide (including cultural genocides) and accelerating the extractivism and damage to the planet, creating a more and more inhospitable world for humanity. He shows how the duality of the mind/body dichotomy doesn't actually exist in nature, that we cannot separate ourselves. His arguments are similar to mine above, though he doesn't bring to bear the physics argument (that is my background). Instead, he digs deep into the ontological arguments from his sociology background to back up his arguments. I highly recommend Some of his and his colleagues works if folks are interested in what I wrote above. His is a little more friendly for those who are not well-versed (or have been exposed to) physics.
The Ontological Question - This question cuts right to the core of who are we and why are we here? In a biological sense this is easy enough to define, but that tells us nothing beyond the fact that we are biological creatures with the capacity to think and act in moral and ethical ways, we are the only animal as far as we know that sees beauty at all, and yet all these things we are capable of function without. Think Narcissist's and Sociopaths. But this question is not really just asking for a scientific explanation of what a human it, it is asking in a more general sense: what does is mean to be human (in a moral, ethical and aesthetic sense)? Think of the term 'humanity' or 'humane' here and consider what exactly we mean when we are asking people act in a humane way? or when we ask people to have regard for our humanity? I inadvertently answered this in my essay above. I think we are the universe made manifest, the emergence of consciousness from billions of particles acting in interdependence to create us. Each of us unique in our configurations. As for WHY we are here, that is up to us to decide. I believe it is rooted in curiosity and relationality -- humanity has survived NOT because of competition (it is a myth that nature is only red in tooth and claw, there is much cooperation in nature that helps species thrive), but we have survived because of COOPERATION. We, even in the darkest and most dangerous disasters, tend toward cooperation. Even when people are looting stores in disasters, they aren't doing it just out of selfish need (though their needs are valid and worthy of help) but also to share with their relations -- whether those relations be biological relatives, neighbors, or other people in their area. This tendency toward cooperation has played out again and again and again throughout history. Even as children, we tend toward cooperation.
Society had to teach us how to be competitive (sometimes unsuccessfully and sometimes far too successfully), and that socialization is what severs us from each other, from the root of our being (our interconnectedness with the Earth), and from who we are.
Anyway, those are my thoughts. My hands are tired now, so I'll end here. Thanks for reading!
The Axiological Question - This question is about value. And I do not mean financial value, but value in a metaphysical sense. What things do we value and why? This question flows from the last and is crucial for helping us to direct where exactly we should target not only our moral and ethical considerations, but also our cultural, and aesthetic consideration. And by aesthetic I do not mean merely the appearance of things, rather I am speaking generally of the importance of beauty in our world and for our psychological and spiritual wellbeing. In a general sense we should, how it is we come to value things at all in this world? Why we value them? And we must consider if our value and appreciation is appropriate or not. For instance modern human society in my mind at least seems to have an unhealthy attachment with utilitarian and instrumental forms of value often disregarding other (often more important value considerations). Namely, we are all too often attached to either the material value (financial value) of an object, or its capacity to provide more material value (utility value). These two things, dominate all discourse in the media, and in policy making. Yet the most crucial forms of value for our way of life, our culture, the moral and ethical fabric of society, the beauty of our surroundings (both natural beauty, and the beauty of our architecture) - these things have all bee sacrificed and disregarded as unnecessary or somehow less important than the financial bottom line.
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Post by ScintillaMyntan on Oct 14, 2021 21:15:05 GMT -6
I believe this point is also related to how we perceive our role in the universe, and whether we consider ourselves OF the universe. If we continue this myth that we are somehow "separate" from nature, we will continue to fall prey to this idea that we can do what we want with no consequence, that we can be one hundred percent objective and thus in time know everything, when that simply isn't true -- it's an anthropomorphic fantasy (as you put it). I wrote an essay on this that I will type up here: Whoa, this is fascinating and rather beautiful, and I have so many questions. It's amazing to think science could explain so much more than what I thought the material world was. I only in the last couple days read that Schrödinger believed Hindu nondualism and physics were describing the same properties of the world. I didn't realize this was such a thing.
On a personal note, my dad is a quantum physicist and I will need to have a conversation with him on these things. He has passingly mentioned some of the more philosophical implications of what he studies, like that the universe might be a computer simulation, and when it came up that he and I began having problems in our lives at the same time, he said — and I couldn't tell if he was joking — that the events may have been connected on an unseen level. I have been getting closer with my dad lately, and it makes me happy I could connect with him with this topic as well since physics is so much of what he thinks about all day.
Questions that came to mind from your really thought-provoking post:
So subjective observation makes reality with those quantum particles. Does that actually have implications for the macro level or am I thinking about it wrong? Like, does cultural change affect reality somehow? Or does a person's beliefs or conscious psychological states influence reality?
How exactly do you get from the common source of matter in the Big Bang and entanglement, to higher-level interconnectedness? I'm trying to understand, not criticize— I certainly don't know nearly enough about this to criticize. You seem to be going from physics to a more spiritual statement about recognizing interdependence, maybe even an ethical statement. At first when I was reading your essay, I thought the relationship was a symbolic one, like just as we have the same origin and our particles depend on each other, we can recognize that we are connected, but you seem to be going a little further than just symbolism to a more metaphysical relationship, I think?
Like, I wouldn't say, "This lump of coal and I both have a lot of carbon; therefore I need to respect and recognize my interdependence with this coal." Should that change just because I learned that the coal and I have entangled quantum particles? What makes quantum particles different from carbon molecules for the sake of philosophy? The coal and I might affect each other for other reasons, but being made of carbon isn't one of them.
If everything is subjective, can people observe the same thing differently? How does the universe reconcile that? Are they both right at the same time?
Does this necessitate that there is no consciousness after death, since a being's consciousness is inseparable from the particles making them up? Or is it like a 'consciousness returns to the source' thing?
Does anything in physics explain 'paranormal' phenomena like ghosts or telekinesis?
Could someone interpret quantum mechanics philosophically in a different way than you do? Like take the same phenomena and not come to these conclusions that you have?
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Bird
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Post by Bird on Oct 15, 2021 19:32:14 GMT -6
Questions that came to mind from your really thought-provoking post: So subjective observation makes reality with those quantum particles. Does that actually have implications for the macro level or am I thinking about it wrong? Like, does cultural change affect reality somehow? Or does a person's beliefs or conscious psychological states influence reality? The short answer is we simply don't know yet. The longer answer involves holographic theory, multi-world theory, string theory, and/or the computer simulation theory (of which your Dad could probably share a good discussion with you on that. I studied physics in college and wanted to focus on quantum mechanics, but my health prevented me from making it into doctorate studies. So this is more of my background and approach.) Holographic theory, multi-world theory, and string theory are wildly different theories that have similar mathematical roots. For Multi-world theory, all the possible ways particles may exist do indeed exist in alternate worlds/dimensions/realities. There is a reality we experience, but each decision we make splits off into other realities (where we make a different decision in that reality or our particles engage in a different way with other particles). There's a heck of a lot more to this theory, which I can dig up some links for it once I have a bit more time and my hands don't hurt as much. There's also these interpretations of quantum mechanics as discussed in this article: blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/what-does-quantum-theory-actually-tell-us-about-reality/There are some science fiction stories that play with the idea that the mass of human belief in specific things can will things into existence. (For example, The Lathe of Heaven LeGuin explores this idea through a person whose dreams become reality. So then a psychologist, a dectective, and the dreamer himself end up trying to manipulate his dreams to create the perfect reality, free of oppression, but the end result is not at all what they wanted because the dreamer's impact cannot be divorced from the results. No matter how others may try to manipulate him into creating only what they want. There's also a short story, of which I forget the author, that discusses this scientists who writes about the shifts in reality by massive cultural change - where the scientists ends up ceasing to exist because the massive cultural shift disbelieved him out of existence. So suffice to say, there's a lot more experimentation and debates happening about this very topic. How exactly do you get from the common source of matter in the Big Bang and entanglement, to higher-level interconnectedness? I'm trying to understand, not criticize— I certainly don't know nearly enough about this to criticize. You seem to be going from physics to a more spiritual statement about recognizing interdependence, maybe even an ethical statement. At first when I was reading your essay, I thought the relationship was a symbolic one, like just as we have the same origin and our particles depend on each other, we can recognize that we are connected, but you seem to be going a little further than just symbolism to a more metaphysical relationship, I think? I weave all of that into my essay, yes. As I think they are all interconnected. I come from a physics background, so that's why I went that direction in my arguments. There are some who think the act of observing, which collapses the wave-function into a specific set of particle attributes, requires the universe to have a sentient mind to be the catalyst in that system. That's part of the article from Scientific American I linked above. That's the Werner Heisenberg hypothesis, that reality doesn't exist until it is observed. I'm not sure I'm fully on board with this interpretation (I'll share my thoughts below the other interpretations). For other interpretations of this same phenomenon, we have de Broglie-Bohm theory, which says that reality is both wave and particle. This interpretation involves viewing the particle as "riding" the wave, and thus the particle is the one that interferes with itself (being both a wave and a particle) and thus ends up in a particular configuration. For this theory, the observer isn't really present. And although there is merits to this argument, quantum mechanics makes it clear that the act of an observation is the actual catalyst for the collapse of the Schrodinger's wave into a specific attribute of particles -- so who is the observer is the focus of this theory, and those that align with de Broglie-bohm, struggle to articulate in math and words who that observer is. Then you have the "collapse" theories that argue that if enough particles are in a given area, as in their probability of being in that area is incredibly high, that high probability is what triggers the wave-collapse into a verifiable and detectable reality. This also doesn't require an observer, but what causes those particles to be in that area to cause such a high probability? The theories in this corner also struggle with articulating this. There's some really interesting math behind this interpretation. So yes, there are a lot of different interpretations. I actually sort of combine all those interpretations into my own to be honest. When experiments are done such as double-slit experiments with photons (where photons are shot one particle at a time at two slits that project onto a screen), the detector's existence (as one needs a detector to determine the path of the photon) influences the end result. That's an observer, and those other interpretations try to write out that observer. But we can't really -- we can't negate the fact that to obtain the data of our reality, we must observe it, and the act of our observing thus influencing the system we are observing. We become part of that system, so in that sense, does us, the observer, becoming part of the system then fall into line with de Broglie-Bohm's or the Collapse Interpretations? Yes, as we are now part of the system, we have influenced the probability fields of the particles, and that causes the collapse. So in the end, I see the observer as existing in all interpretations as part of the system. There's no way around that in my eyes. I think this answered one of your other questions concerning if there are other ways to interpret this. lol Like, I wouldn't say, "This lump of coal and I both have a lot of carbon; therefore I need to respect and recognize my interdependence with this coal." Should that change just because I learned that the coal and I have entangled quantum particles? What makes quantum particles different from carbon molecules for the sake of philosophy? The coal and I might affect each other for other reasons, but being made of carbon isn't one of them. Yes, in some Indigenous world-views, you would say that you are interdependent with that lump of coal, and in that sense, it deserves some respect.
If you really think about it, much of our modern world relies on coal and oil, so we wouldn't be able to communicate at all without that lump of coal. So yes, in a macro-sense, we are dependent on that coal to function in our modern society. We've just been so removed from the source of our energy, that we don't recognize it. That's part of the relationality approach to the world that Indigenous world-views have -- to see the roots of where we get our technology, to see how the strands of all those materials pass through all these different people and machines across the world, and pass through all these layers of rock on the Earth, and the particles within that coal indeed are the same carbon elements that make us up -- and those particles were made in the belly of stars. So yes, we are still connected with the coal. Quantum particles make up all molecules -- a carbon molecule is made up of proton, neutrons, and electrons. The electrons are indeed quantum particles that behave according to quantum mechanics principles and mathematics (to a high precision that amazes scientists today, that is how successful quantum mechanics is at predicting particles like electrons). Now protons and neutrons are made up of quarks, which are also quantum particles. So yes, carbon molecules' constituents are simply quantum particles. One cannot divorce a molecule from what makes it up. If everything is subjective, can people observe the same thing differently? How does the universe reconcile that? Are they both right at the same time? Does this necessitate that there is no consciousness after death, since a being's consciousness is inseparable from the particles making them up? Or is it like a 'consciousness returns to the source' thing?
Yes. Look at General relativity and special relativity. Both theories by Einstein are dependent on the observer. For example, let's say I'm on a faster than the speed of sound aircraft, and you are stationary in a bubble in space. How you view me and the length of my aircraft, how quickly I pass you by, will differ significantly than how I observe myself and how i observe myself in relation to you. That difference is able to be calculated mathematically within General and Special relativity. Most of the time the differences in how we view reality is rather small to the point of being negligible. It's when we look at the very, very small (quantum world) or the very,very large and fast (relativity world) that we see how our differences in perspective impact the way we interpret events. I'll have to think of a way to share how such differences are reconciled. I keep thinking of how to do it with math, which... isn't helpful in these types of discussions. lol So I need to think of a way to explain it maybe with a metaphor. Let's say we are looking at a cat in the box. The box is closed. We have no way to measure if the cat is actually IN the box or if the box is empty. We could try to lift the box and check its weight, but without the knowledge of the box weight or the cat weight, it is hard to definitely say the cat is in the box or not. So until we open the box, we can disagree on reality all we want. It's the act of measuring by opening the box where the reconciliation of our realities happen. Now, because sentience is a weird thing, the person who claims there is no cat in the box, can go on doing that all they want, even as they reach in and touch the cat's fur. (This is how conspiracy theories are born). They can have all the evidence the cat is in the box, but if their mind is so rooted in denying that reality, for them, they create their own made-up reality and may even fail to see what they are actually touching. We can trick our own minds. So yes, there is instances where we may disagree and have no way to reconcile it. Brains are funky like that, but now we've entered into the realm of psychology, and that's not my forte. Suffice to say, the universe reconciles the differences, but we have the conscious decision to reject that reconciliation or embrace it. Because our interdependence -- us being part of the system means our act of observing the opening of the box causes the universe to reconcile the interior of the box for us to observe. The waveform collapses, and we see the cat or not. But because we are conscious and sentient, we can reject that reality still. That's a decision that is one step beyond the moment the wave-form of quantum particles collapse from our observation. If that makes sense? Also, as a side note, in the many-world (multi-world) theory, it reconciles those differences as each difference splinters off into a different reality, so there is a reality where our differences aren't reconcilable, and a reality where they are, and a reality where we don't have differences, etc. That's part of the theory (similar to the discussion of how each decision or different in particle configurations splinter off realities). Does anything in physics explain 'paranormal' phenomena like ghosts or telekinesis?
Could someone interpret quantum mechanics philosophically in a different way than you do? Like take the same phenomena and not come to these conclusions that you have?
I would recommend reading Michio Kaku's books. He writes about this actually, and has some really good arguments about ways we could realize "telekinesis" or "telepathy" with physics and technology. Physics cannot confirm or deny ghosts. I suspect ghosts or paranormal spookiness requires belief, where our minds create our reality by believing so strongly in something that we will it into existence for ourselves and anyone who is as convinced as we are. There's some interesting experiments about how a person who believes in something so strongly, that they can cause others to align with their strongly held beliefs. There's also some experiments that show how different people can experience a thing differently based on their socializations, prejudices, unconscious biases, trauma triggers, and so forth -- for example, someone who does not believe in ghosts is presented with images or asked to enter a haunted room. They share an experience of not seeing ghosts and not feeling anything weird about the place. But take someone who believes strongly in ghosts, they will always see a ghost in the pictures or in the room, especially if primed by the image being called "haunted" or the room being called "haunted." I don't feel well enough to try to locate studies like that at the moment. I read them in a psychology class back in college. It was pretty interesting. The point here is that we may not always agree on our reality, but there is a portion of our universe that we cannot disagree on: we are both alive and we both exist, else we wouldn't be talking to one another. From that shared agreement, we can then build a relational way of being. So it is possible to work around our differences to reconcile them in ways that are beneficial. It is very hard work however. Ok, I'm really tired again, and my hands are starting to hurt again. I'll stop here. Thank you for your questions! They really got me thinking and digging a bit deeper. I'm glad you enjoyed my essay.
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