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Post by RAVENEYE on Jan 31, 2021 15:19:37 GMT -6
If you're a writer seeking authentic "how was it then" information, whether you're writing historical fiction, alternative historical, Gaslight fantasy, or Steampunk, you'll want to check out Baedeker's guides for travelers. These books were issued every few years throughout the last half of the 19th Century to help British or American travelers understand the cultures and practices of the places they were traveling through -- and how to avoid social faux pas. What medicines did travelers take with them (and therefore use at home)? What manner of travel might you expect to reserve for yourself? When was it appropriate for gentlemen to remove their hats in this country vs that country? When was it necessary for women to put hats on? Victorian women taking off their shoes in public? Yes, this was required if you toured a mosque. What food might you be expected to eat? Which hotel did you NOT want to stay in and why? How did you rent a servant while abroad? Baedeker's guides detail all these things for various countries. Even if you're NOT writing about tourists visiting these places, the guides give valuable cultural insight, should your Steampunk heroine encounter a Swiss inventor or an Egyptian mummy raised from the dead. Point is, if your story takes place in the real world in centuries past, Baedeker's guides will provide useful insights you may not have thought of. Seriously, call me crazy, but there are some fascinating details to be found. A world gone by encapsulated. Many guides are found at Archives.org for download in various forms, or they can be read online, at this link: BAEDEKERS TRAVEL GUIDES(I learned during a class on historical fiction that Germans (where this publication is produced) say this "BAY-dek-er" while the British say it "BI-dek-uh") |
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farida
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Post by farida on Feb 1, 2021 6:34:23 GMT -6
Haha, wonderful! Yes, the Germans would pronounce it as an Umlaut! I love those guides. I read one about Germany that cracked me up so much, especially the observation that Germans are obsessed with "houseshoes" and will be totally cool with you bringing your own pair, or else offer you one of theirs - which one one thinks is at all weird.
It said that every German household has many, many pairs of houseshoes. No, that's rubbish, I thought, and then went through my mental inventory.
Turns out I have four pairs of houseshoes. FOUR.
You can take the Fraeulein out of Germany, but never Germany out of the Fraeulein.
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Post by RAVENEYE on Feb 1, 2021 14:28:52 GMT -6
Haha, wonderful! Yes, the Germans would pronounce it as an Umlaut! I love those guides. I read one about Germany that cracked me up so much, especially the observation that Germans are obsessed with "houseshoes" and will be totally cool with you bringing your own pair, or else offer you one of theirs - which one one thinks is at all weird. It said that every German household has many, many pairs of houseshoes. No, that's rubbish, I thought, and then went through my mental inventory. Turns out I have four pairs of houseshoes. FOUR. You can take the Fraeulein out of Germany, but never Germany out of the Fraeulein. Omigosh, are you serious? This is a fabulous cultural nugget. I mean, who outside that culture would think to include a tidbit about houseshoes?! I guess the practice of going about in sockfeet (especially 150 years ago) would been considered horribly indecent. |
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Post by RAVENEYE on Feb 4, 2021 18:50:33 GMT -6
Oh, oh, oh, the horrible racist attitudes and sentiments I'm running across as I read Baedeker's overview of the different types of people populating Egypt. I mean, we know it was bad, but to see it spelled out so matter-of-factly in a tourism guide is just making me cringe.
Here are some highlights to make you squirm:
"its highest civil appointments, some of which are held
by able Europeans and by Armenians educated in France, Germany,
or England , and under their auspices a brighter future is probably
in store for Egypt." (because under native Turkish officials, the country was (according to Baedeker) corrupt and unable to move forward. Europeans and people educated in Europe are required to save the country from itself.)
Speaking of Africans from farther south: "Their race indeed appears incapable of independent
and intelligent exertion. Negresses, however, are frequently employed
as domestic servants, and are said to be faithful and trustworthy." (Like, OMG)
Of Nubian Berbers: "The traveller must not expect to find
them very sincerely attached or grateful , any more than the native
Egyptians, but as servants they are certainly
preferable [to native Egyptians who are stubborn]."
"In all these respects the fellahin [the peasantry], as well as their
domestic animals , contrast strongly with the inhabitants of the
desert, the fellah and the Beduin differing from each other precisely
in the same points as their respective camels." (physical build of people compared with build of livestock)
I mean, I'm squirming here. And to write an accurate portrayal of people living in this time, these attitudes need to be reflected in the story. It's revolting. I'm so glad my heroine sees the people she encounters on her journey as wonderous and beautiful. Putting these attitudes in the hero of a story would simply not work with today's audiences.
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farida
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Post by farida on Feb 6, 2021 8:22:34 GMT -6
"In all these respects the fellahin [the peasantry], as well as their domestic animals , contrast strongly with the inhabitants of the desert, the fellah and the Beduin differing from each other precisely in the same points as their respective camels." (physical build of people compared with build of livestock) Hahaha, oh my God, that is horrendous and horrible!  
I was married to a fellah (who, in the UK, we would refer to as "me fella"  ) for some time, so now I HAVE to ask my Arabic familiy in what way they differ from bedouins and camels. I've met, dined with, done the dishes of and gotten into family rows with dozens and dozens of fellahin, and some bedouin, and never once did any of them display camel-like physical proportions. |
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Post by RAVENEYE on Feb 6, 2021 10:44:36 GMT -6
"In all these respects the fellahin [the peasantry], as well as their domestic animals , contrast strongly with the inhabitants of the desert, the fellah and the Beduin differing from each other precisely in the same points as their respective camels." (physical build of people compared with build of livestock) Hahaha, oh my God, that is horrendous and horrible!  
I was married to a fellah (who, in the UK, we would refer to as "me fella"  ) for some time, so now I HAVE to ask my Arabic familiy in what way they differ from bedouins and camels. I've met, dined with, done the dishes of and gotten into family rows with dozens and dozens of fellahin, and some bedouin, and never once did any of them display camel-like physical proportions.  Oh, jeez! It's so awful!!! I dread to know what any of your family would say in reaction to this. The unmitigated arrogance is just revolting. Then I suppose you know folks who speak Egyptian Arabic? When this draft is finished, I must find someone who can ensure the snippets of native language I use are not atrociously incorrect. How mortifying. I mean, that's still months away, but I guess it doesn't hurt to start seeking help early on. I was going to ask a guy my husband used to work with, he was from Cairo, but he moved to a different company and we can't find him. Oh, well. Sheesh. |
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farida
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Post by farida on Feb 9, 2021 15:21:35 GMT -6
Yep, my brother in law lives in Egypt, as does a dear friend. I'm sure they'd help out.
Although my brother in law is Palestinian, so prepare for a lecture how Palestinian Arabic is the true, best, most elegant Arabic and all other dialects are simply bad imitations.
His uncle is married to a Moroccan woman, and I swear 80% of their daily conversation is about whose Arabic is the better Arabic.
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Post by RAVENEYE on Feb 10, 2021 9:56:07 GMT -6
Yep, my brother in law lives in Egypt, as does a dear friend. I'm sure they'd help out. Although my brother in law is Palestinian, so prepare for a lecture how Palestinian Arabic is the true, best, most elegant Arabic and all other dialects are simply bad imitations. His uncle is married to a Moroccan woman, and I swear 80% of their daily conversation is about whose Arabic is the better Arabic. I bet that gets colorful! LOL, the best I can do so far is an Egyptian Arabic phrase book, but that covers the practical touristy things like "Where's the bathroom?" And I'm definitely writing about uneducated rural people living around the Theban ruins a century ago, so now that I know there's an argument about which form of the language is better, I'm more determined than ever to reflect the rural dialect, if at all possible. (B/c it'd be my luck that among all the other controversial topics the novel covers, some darling Egyptian would come along, read the thing and be happy to inform me that this Theban 9-yr-old speaks like a Jordanian prince or something.   ) The story does include a bodyguard descended from Turks, however, who I'm betting would be thrilled with such a debate. Gosh, I'd love to include that detail now. Hehe. |
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farida
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Post by farida on Feb 16, 2021 15:48:10 GMT -6
I can give you a few Egyptian phrases:
Mish mushkele - no problem/ no worries
Mashee (written with the Arabic letter Ain, which is a long, drawly A, a bit like a Texan A) - okay, fine
Ya humar - you donkey!
Inshala (super common across the Arabic world) - God willing (meaning hopefully, but in a way that is actually certain - "I'll see you later, inshala.")
Khalas - Stop! Enough! (often used with kids, but also if someone is talking rubbish)
Yla/Yallah - let's go, let's do that!
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Post by RAVENEYE on Feb 17, 2021 9:12:55 GMT -6
I can give you a few Egyptian phrases: Mish mushkele - no problem/ no worries Mashee (written with the Arabic letter Ain, which is a long, drawly A, a bit like a Texan A) - okay, fine Ya humar - you donkey! Inshala (super common across the Arabic world) - God willing (meaning hopefully, but in a way that is actually certain - "I'll see you later, inshala.") Khalas - Stop! Enough! (often used with kids, but also if someone is talking rubbish) Yla/ Yallah - let's go, let's do that! Oh nice! I had run across Inshala (how could I avoid it?) and Yallah, but not the others. I'm so going to use these.  |
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) for some time, so now I HAVE to ask my Arabic familiy in what way they differ from bedouins and camels. I've met, dined with, done the dishes of and gotten into family rows with dozens and dozens of fellahin, and some bedouin, and never once did any of them display camel-like physical proportions. 
) for some time, so now I HAVE to ask my Arabic familiy in what way they differ from bedouins and camels. I've met, dined with, done the dishes of and gotten into family rows with dozens and dozens of fellahin, and some bedouin, and never once did any of them display camel-like physical proportions. 
Oh, jeez! It's so awful!!! I dread to know what any of your family would say in reaction to this. The unmitigated arrogance is just revolting. 
) The story does include a bodyguard descended from Turks, however, who I'm betting would be thrilled with such a debate. Gosh, I'd love to include that detail now. Hehe. 
You add them to your profile as you do them around the forum.