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Post by StarGirl06 on Nov 23, 2020 0:54:22 GMT -6
On Discord yesterday I brought up I always worried about writing cliches and tropes, in a way I feel I struggle a lot to think of new things. bilance(Etrius) said cliches were fine to set the mood but writing your way out with one is lazy writing. I'm not going to lie I was confused and don't exactly know what he meant by that so I asked what that would be and Raveneye suggested posting the question here too.
So what would writing your way out with a cliche be?
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Post by RAVENEYE on Nov 23, 2020 12:13:44 GMT -6
To me, "writing your way out with a cliche" means relying too heavily on cliched sayings to get your point across instead of spending the time to invent new ways of expressing ideas. People are so familiar with the meanings of cliches that if a writer relies on those phrases, they can be confident that their readers will understand what they're saying, but in such a way that the author doesn't have to use any brainpower to invent something original.
Tangent: This brings to mind the practice of using "deus ex machina" to solve a plot problem. "Oops, I backed my characters into a corner, so let's bring in this god-like solution to get them out of trouble" instead of revising from an earlier chapter to fix the issue. Which has happened to so frequently in badly written fiction that it, too, might be construed as cliche.
End tangent: It IS hard to come up with new things. And I think part of the problem is that we get into such a hurry to finish a draft that we don't take the time to brainstorm ways to avoid the cliches. Good writing takes time, patience, and diligence. If you find yourself using cliches, highlight them in the rough draft and finish that draft without worrying about them. Keep moving ahead. THEN on the second draft, when the story is safely out of your head and on screen/paper where it won't get lost, go to those highlighted places and brainstorm different ways to replace the cliches with something else.
Honestly, if an author understands their characters, their world, and the situation those characters are in, and if that author is writing from inside that character's skin, then the expression of ideas ought to come from the characters, rather than from the author or our real-world list of cliches. SO THAT the expression of ideas ends up being unique to the characters, their environment, and their situation. THEREFORE, if a story is fraught with cliches, maybe it's time to go back to the drawing board and get better acquainted with the uniqueness of each character and their world.
I mean, there are probably exceptions, but even then, relying on cliches ought to be extremely rare and very appropriate to the occasion.
Anyone have a different interpretation?
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Post by pelwrath on Nov 25, 2020 2:17:02 GMT -6
Raveneye, that’s an excellent post. As for deus ex machina. Tolkins eagles are a perfect example.
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Post by RAVENEYE on Nov 25, 2020 9:27:08 GMT -6
Raveneye, that’s an excellent post. As for deus ex machina. Tolkins eagles are a perfect example. Omigosh, yes! Exactly. Those awesome eagles are such a cheat. In the movies especially b/c so little of their backstory/lore is given. In the books their sudden appearance seems to make a little more sense, b/c Tolkien gives a little space to why they're showing up out of nowhere. But not much.  If I were Sauron, I would've spent a lot of resources trying to corrupt and turn those eagles to my side, b/c they always show up and ruin my diabolical schemes. Oh well. Bahahaha! Anytime a story encounters logic problems like the following, it's probably time to rework some things:    Kinda off topic there, though, since these memes are really pointing out plot holes and poor logic. But that's exactly why deus ex machina shows up in the first place--just like an eagle out of the blue. |
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Post by Alatariel on Nov 25, 2020 12:45:50 GMT -6
So I've been talking to my dad a lot about tropes and cliches lately. (He's Soliton for anyone out of the loop.) He's worried his science fiction novel is packed with cliches because he doesn't really read his own genre. (Helpful hint: Read your genre to know what's a cliche and a trope within that genre.)
I always say that tropes are there to be used, they aren't there to tell you what to avoid but common ways in which people create characters, worlds, situations, plots, etc. Use them freely and with abandon. It helps make stories familiar and understandable.
When a trope becomes a cliche is when you don't bother to give your character's a unique perspective or personality. You don't take time to develop the world you've built but instead skimmed over things in order to get on with the plot. And the plot is cliche when you don't take your character's unique perspectives/skills into account and just construct a simple A-B-C structure that any character could easily fit into. For me, cliches will happen but we can make them interesting and unique by giving our characters REAL emotional responses, time to think about how they would get out of a situation, or how they would respond to something unexpected.
Personally, there are a lot of tropes I love and within certain genres I hope to find them. When reading YA, I really do want a romantic subplot and I'm okay with love triangles as long as the characters within the triangle are interesting and unique. No cookie cutter romantic interests. Gimme the sarcastic rogue who is emotionally stunted from past trauma but learning to love again, and give me the outwardly tough unemotional warrior who thinks a sword will solve any problem but secretly loves feeding the widdle birdies in his veggie garden and enjoys cuddling.
I hope that makes sense, I think I went on a bit of a tanget, but the point is: Use tropes, combine tropes, and then give them depth.
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Post by RAVENEYE on Nov 25, 2020 12:56:29 GMT -6
Despite all the years I've been at this writing thing, I'm still having to learn the difference between tropes and cliches, and I think not being able to grasp where that line is crossed has really hampered my creativity--mainly out of fear that the tropes I use will be construed as cliches, and so it stops me from carrying lots of ideas further.
So your explanation is helpful, Ala.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 19:56:36 GMT -6
So, funny story, it's entirely possible that Gandalf entirely MEANT them to take the Eagles to Mordor.
He'd already established a relationship with them, by escaping Sauron in Fellowship of the Ring. And his first instinct in crossing Moria was to go through the tops of the Mountains...where the Eagles lived. Literally, they lived in the Misty Mountains, on the eastern slopes. Rivendale is on the western side of the mountains. They'd just have to pass the mountains to get to them. Gandalf just didn't tell anyone his plans.
...
...Or did he?
Remember when he fell? Remember when he was holding on to the edge, and he had only a moment to say three words to Frodo before falling to what could very well be his death? What did he choose to say?
"Fly, you fools!"
He was telling them the answer. He'd just kept his cards so close to his chest, and didn't have time to give more information when it was clear he wouldn't have been able to lead them.
And of course, none of them got it. They went on to Lothlorien, and wound up splitting up before he could come back. Frodo was long gone with the ring, and Gandalf was no longer able to help him directly, so he helped them indirectly.
But the plan was to use the Eagles the whole time. At least, that's what I choose to believe.
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Post by RAVENEYE on Dec 8, 2020 20:28:08 GMT -6
So, funny story, it's entirely possible that Gandalf entirely MEANT them to take the Eagles to Mordor. He'd already established a relationship with them, by escaping Sauron in Fellowship of the Ring. And his first instinct in crossing Moria was to go through the tops of the Mountains...where the Eagles lived. Literally, they lived in the Misty Mountains, on the eastern slopes. Rivendale is on the western side of the mountains. They'd just have to pass the mountains to get to them. Gandalf just didn't tell anyone his plans. ... ...Or did he? Remember when he fell? Remember when he was holding on to the edge, and he had only a moment to say three words to Frodo before falling to what could very well be his death? What did he choose to say? "Fly, you fools!" He was telling them the answer. He'd just kept his cards so close to his chest, and didn't have time to give more information when it was clear he wouldn't have been able to lead them. And of course, none of them got it. They went on to Lothlorien, and wound up splitting up before he could come back. Frodo was long gone with the ring, and Gandalf was no longer able to help him directly, so he helped them indirectly. But the plan was to use the Eagles the whole time. At least, that's what I choose to believe. Bahahaha!!!! This is hilarious! If only the fools had taken him literally, they woulda saved themselves sooooo much trouble, and prevented us a good story. I am totally willing to believe this. Cuz logic demands it. |
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