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Post by pelwrath on Jul 24, 2024 9:27:49 GMT -6
Do you think of your ideal reader before, during, or after you’ve written your first draft?
How do you determine such? I know you have age, gender, category likes, etc. Is this a front loaded ad in Age is always first or can it be done backwards, like solving a maze?
For my books I’ve come up with;
Adults (18+), people who like vampires and mystery, can identify with Agate’s struggles mentally and to protect her family.
Thoughts?
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Post by Sundrinker on Jul 24, 2024 10:19:19 GMT -6
I never thought about it like that. Then again, I've never written something with the intention of it being published.
My target audience has always been, well, myself. When I write something I want to be able to enjoy it. If, after that, people close to me are also able to enjoy it, it makes me happy.
In school, when I had to write whatever it was I had to write, like essays or whatever, it was always a miserable experience and getting a good grade on an assignment didn't change that. I write just to fulfill some criterias and it always felt like garbage to me.
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Post by Alatariel on Jul 24, 2024 11:19:29 GMT -6
Do you think of your ideal reader before, during, or after you’ve written your first draft? How do you determine such? I know you have age, gender, category likes, etc. Is this a front loaded ad in Age is always first or can it be done backwards, like solving a maze? For my books I’ve come up with; Adults (18+), people who like vampires and mystery, can identify with Agate’s struggles mentally and to protect her family. Thoughts? Totally! I tend to picture age groups or someone new to the genre or someone like me who just read a popular book and is looking for something with similar vibes but solves the annoying trope problems. Depends on the project I'm working on at the time. For my current WIP, I picture all sorts of people enjoying it. It's meant to be marketed to adults but there isn't any content that would be objectionable for teens, so they could definitely read it, too. I think of someone who wants something magical, fresh, fun, engaging, and has a balance between physical action and mental puzzles. With previous projects, I've wavered between writing for young adults, teens, and adults. But I do try to picture someone like me, because ultimately that's who I'm writing for at the end of the day. |
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Post by saintofm on Jul 24, 2024 17:33:51 GMT -6
When I was doing warhammer fan fic, i was expecting an older audience, or at least one old enough to watch the average Batman movie without needing a parent present. There was some intense violence, and while not as gory as it could have been, body parts did fly from time to time.
Now that I am trying to convert it to original fiction, the High Elf stuff Middle Gradde to YA (I figure between age 10 to 20), and the eventual dark elf stuff that I started with 15+.
Another series, Warhounds takes place in a high school and its going to be a highschool audience.
Having an idea what your target audience is allows you to know what you can get away with (Court of Thorns and Roses copycats not withstanding). Depending on the target age range, you can only have so much sex, violence, red blood, gore, brutality, swearing, derogatory terms, and if you are in the USA: gay stuff without the powers to be getting that stick further up their bum.
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Post by Alatariel on Jul 25, 2024 9:34:35 GMT -6
Having an idea what your target audience is allows you to know what you can get away with (Court of Thorns and Roses copycats not withstanding). Depending on the target age range, you can only have so much sex, violence, red blood, gore, brutality, swearing, derogatory terms, and if you are in the USA: gay stuff without the powers to be getting that stick further up their bum. That book series is a great example, though. A Court of Thorns and Roses (ACOTAR) started out intending to be YA and lost the narrative pretty quickly. The first book has "closed door" sex scenes which means it's not on the page but implied. That appropriate for YA. However, in book 2, it's VERY MUCH on the page. It goes from being approriate for the genre to being very inappropriate for the genre. Was SJM confused about her audience? I think what happened is that many, many adults were enjoying the book and she became pressured to write for adults. To age up her intended audience on book 2. Which is bad because book 1 definitely reads like a YA novel. It's trite, the main character is childish in her choices, the plot is pretty basic and the side characters are unoriginal archetypes. (I am not saying all YA books are like that! I love YA and most of them are complex and original, but her books tend to be...filled with tropes and archetypes and classic fantasy plots, and she tends to make her young protagonists really annoying. If you want AMAZING YA, read anything by Laini Taylor, especially Strange the Dreamer.) Then book 2 happens and it's like a completely different author steps up to the plate. The tone changes so completely it's hard to say it's the same series. Everyone says "just get past book 1 and the rest of the series is great!" because they know book 1 is a throw-away novel. It was meant to be a campy YA novel for teens to get into fantasy. I wish it stayed that way or she wrote book 1 with the intended audience to be adults. Now she's stuck with a 19 year old protagonist when, if she wrote for adults from the beginning, she could've aged her up a bit. In the following books, SJM is forced to stick with Feyre as a young adult who is, well, impulsive and selfish in some ways...like all 19 year olds are from time to time. Then she has Feyre become this cunning political mind and a physical powerhouse by giving her "special abilities" and it feels so OFF from the original intention of the tone of book one. She's still only 19 and BAM, she understands the intricacies of court politics overnight, moreso than the 500+ year old Fae populating these courts. Anyways.... The same thing happened with Throne of Glass. Wrote it for a YA audience, adults loved it, so she switched midway and tried to make it more "adult". It's confusing how to categorize them because of this and makes people think ALL YA is that confusing. It's not. It's just an SJM thing. |
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Post by saintofm on Jul 25, 2024 12:35:33 GMT -6
Having an idea what your target audience is allows you to know what you can get away with (Court of Thorns and Roses copycats not withstanding). Depending on the target age range, you can only have so much sex, violence, red blood, gore, brutality, swearing, derogatory terms, and if you are in the USA: gay stuff without the powers to be getting that stick further up their bum. That book series is a great example, though. A Court of Thorns and Roses (ACOTAR) started out intending to be YA and lost the narrative pretty quickly. The first book has "closed door" sex scenes which means it's not on the page but implied. That appropriate for YA. However, in book 2, it's VERY MUCH on the page. It goes from being approriate for the genre to being very inappropriate for the genre. Was SJM confused about her audience? I think what happened is that many, many adults were enjoying the book and she became pressured to write for adults. To age up her intended audience on book 2. Which is bad because book 1 definitely reads like a YA novel. It's trite, the main character is childish in her choices, the plot is pretty basic and the side characters are unoriginal archetypes. (I am not saying all YA books are like that! I love YA and most of them are complex and original, but her books tend to be...filled with tropes and archetypes and classic fantasy plots, and she tends to make her young protagonists really annoying. If you want AMAZING YA, read anything by Laini Taylor, especially Strange the Dreamer.) Then book 2 happens and it's like a completely different author steps up to the plate. The tone changes so completely it's hard to say it's the same series. Everyone says "just get past book 1 and the rest of the series is great!" because they know book 1 is a throw-away novel. It was meant to be a campy YA novel for teens to get into fantasy. I wish it stayed that way or she wrote book 1 with the intended audience to be adults. Now she's stuck with a 19 year old protagonist when, if she wrote for adults from the beginning, she could've aged her up a bit. In the following books, SJM is forced to stick with Feyre as a young adult who is, well, impulsive and selfish in some ways...like all 19 year olds are from time to time. Then she has Feyre become this cunning political mind and a physical powerhouse by giving her "special abilities" and it feels so OFF from the original intention of the tone of book one. She's still only 19 and BAM, she understands the intricacies of court politics overnight, moreso than the 500+ year old Fae populating these courts. Anyways.... The same thing happened with Throne of Glass. Wrote it for a YA audience, adults loved it, so she switched midway and tried to make it more "adult". It's confusing how to categorize them because of this and makes people think ALL YA is that confusing. It's not. It's just an SJM thing. Got through the first 100 pages before I had to return it. So the rest of it I got from reputation, and reputation of alot of people trying to emulate her success took Fantasy Sex with Fantasy being as the lesson; not the focus on political intrigue, culture shock, or what the transition from human to something other can do to someone mentally. |
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Post by HDSimplicityy on Aug 10, 2024 2:12:33 GMT -6
Having an idea what your target audience is allows you to know what you can get away with (Court of Thorns and Roses copycats not withstanding). Depending on the target age range, you can only have so much sex, violence, red blood, gore, brutality, swearing, derogatory terms, and if you are in the USA: gay stuff without the powers to be getting that stick further up their bum. That book series is a great example, though. A Court of Thorns and Roses (ACOTAR) started out intending to be YA and lost the narrative pretty quickly. The first book has "closed door" sex scenes which means it's not on the page but implied. That appropriate for YA. However, in book 2, it's VERY MUCH on the page. It goes from being approriate for the genre to being very inappropriate for the genre. Was SJM confused about her audience? I think what happened is that many, many adults were enjoying the book and she became pressured to write for adults. To age up her intended audience on book 2. Which is bad because book 1 definitely reads like a YA novel. It's trite, the main character is childish in her choices, the plot is pretty basic and the side characters are unoriginal archetypes. (I am not saying all YA books are like that! I love YA and most of them are complex and original, but her books tend to be...filled with tropes and archetypes and classic fantasy plots, and she tends to make her young protagonists really annoying. If you want AMAZING YA, read anything by Laini Taylor, especially Strange the Dreamer.) Then book 2 happens and it's like a completely different author steps up to the plate. The tone changes so completely it's hard to say it's the same series. Everyone says "just get past book 1 and the rest of the series is great!" because they know book 1 is a throw-away novel. It was meant to be a campy YA novel for teens to get into fantasy. I wish it stayed that way or she wrote book 1 with the intended audience to be adults. Now she's stuck with a 19 year old protagonist when, if she wrote for adults from the beginning, she could've aged her up a bit. In the following books, SJM is forced to stick with Feyre as a young adult who is, well, impulsive and selfish in some ways...like all 19 year olds are from time to time. Then she has Feyre become this cunning political mind and a physical powerhouse by giving her "special abilities" and it feels so OFF from the original intention of the tone of book one. She's still only 19 and BAM, she understands the intricacies of court politics overnight, moreso than the 500+ year old Fae populating these courts. Anyways.... The same thing happened with Throne of Glass. Wrote it for a YA audience, adults loved it, so she switched midway and tried to make it more "adult". It's confusing how to categorize them because of this and makes people think ALL YA is that confusing. It's not. It's just an SJM thing. So she is overrated? Im told one of those series is absolutely amazing. Maybe ignoring on page sex. Reminds me of Rebecca Yarros and her insanely popular Empyrean books. First half of Fourth Wing is entertaining YA fantasy. It gets rolling nicely through action and classroom settings. The second half of the book has like three graphic sex scenes. I hated reading them. I think the ONLY reason they're popular is those scenes.
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Post by Alatariel on Aug 10, 2024 10:32:34 GMT -6
HDSimplicityy I feel like to seasoned fantasy readers, yes SJ Maas is overrated because we see the tropes, we see the other books she pulled inspiration from, we see the repetitive writing more easily than people who don't read a lot of fantasy. I think it depends on who you ask as to which of her series is the best. You'll have the Throne of Glass diehards and the ACOTAR obsessed fans. They both inspire a lot of devotion because the characters are relatable and the situations are extremely intense which foster a lot of big feelings. Throne of Glass is YA so there isn't any sex except for near the end and it's mild...which was weird for YA. Once again, as she wrote the series the started aging up the audience and it was jarring. As for Fourth Wing (I read the first one) I agree. It was entertaining enough for a vacation book (I always need something slightly brainless for vacation but still engaging) but I had absolutely zero desire to continue the series. Plus, I heard book 2 is filled with miscommunication between the two main love interests and I just *sigh* hate that with my whole soul. What I see in these series' is what I like to call "manufactured conflict" and "manipulative prose". The author purposefully takes "intelligent" characters and forces them to make horribly stupid decisions and then the consequences of those decisions have huge reverberations through the rest of the book and then on top of it the author writes scenes in a way that manipulates the reader into feeling a certain way and then flips the script a few chapters later. It's emotional whiplash and A LOT of people mistake that for good writing and amazing "twists". It's not. I realized a while ago that "plot twists" in many books aren't earned and that I value good characters above all else. So many authors right now are going for big shocking twist endings instead of putting their focus on developing their characters and we end up with flat, faceless, boring, cardboard characters in big emotional traumatic situations. They're thrown from one scene to the next without much thought. I want emotional connection in a book. One that's earned, one that's gradual and genuine and blooms quietly in my chest with each turn of the page. One that, by the end of the book, I'm clutching it to my chest and aching for the characters. Rather, many of these big YA authors are going for the SHOCK and SPECTACLE. I do recommend: Laini Taylor, Alison Saft, Erin Morgenstern, and Adrienne Young. They have such a lovely way of writing special characters that I would follow to the ends of the earth.
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Post by HDSimplicityy on Aug 11, 2024 19:01:28 GMT -6
HDSimplicityy I feel like to seasoned fantasy readers, yes SJ Maas is overrated because we see the tropes, we see the other books she pulled inspiration from, we see the repetitive writing more easily than people who don't read a lot of fantasy. I think it depends on who you ask as to which of her series is the best. You'll have the Throne of Glass diehards and the ACOTAR obsessed fans. They both inspire a lot of devotion because the characters are relatable and the situations are extremely intense which foster a lot of big feelings. Throne of Glass is YA so there isn't any sex except for near the end and it's mild...which was weird for YA. Once again, as she wrote the series the started aging up the audience and it was jarring. As for Fourth Wing (I read the first one) I agree. It was entertaining enough for a vacation book (I always need something slightly brainless for vacation but still engaging) but I had absolutely zero desire to continue the series. Plus, I heard book 2 is filled with miscommunication between the two main love interests and I just *sigh* hate that with my whole soul. What I see in these series' is what I like to call "manufactured conflict" and "manipulative prose". The author purposefully takes "intelligent" characters and forces them to make horribly stupid decisions and then the consequences of those decisions have huge reverberations through the rest of the book and then on top of it the author writes scenes in a way that manipulates the reader into feeling a certain way and then flips the script a few chapters later. It's emotional whiplash and A LOT of people mistake that for good writing and amazing "twists". It's not. I realized a while ago that "plot twists" in many books aren't earned and that I value good characters above all else. So many authors right now are going for big shocking twist endings instead of putting their focus on developing their characters and we end up with flat, faceless, boring, cardboard characters in big emotional traumatic situations. They're thrown from one scene to the next without much thought. I want emotional connection in a book. One that's earned, one that's gradual and genuine and blooms quietly in my chest with each turn of the page. One that, by the end of the book, I'm clutching it to my chest and aching for the characters. Rather, many of these big YA authors are going for the SHOCK and SPECTACLE. I do recommend: Laini Taylor, Alison Saft, Erin Morgenstern, and Adrienne Young. They have such a lovely way of writing special characters that I would follow to the ends of the earth. I mean, tropes are there to be used. She must be using them to her advantage. I've chatted with those seasoned fantasy readers on Discord. They love them. So its... (shrug).. .are they just loving everything they read without a second thought? Or are they genuinely great books. Sounds like its more popular than high quality. But I digress having not read them. Ill check out Throne of Glass.
If characters are going into love scenes, just "Fade to Black" past kisses.
Manufactured conflict yeah... its seen. Its dialogue that is supposed to comes across as tense. The lead-up to those moments doesn't feel like it is.... enough. I remember thinking that about Rogue One: A Star Wars Story. Really good movie overall. There is a scene where Jyn and Cassian are crashlanded on a rocky planet. Preparing to go in. They just argue about true motivations, and they both don't get along. The scenes leading up to that don't add up to that much. But... you know... its still a really good movie.
Im with you on wanting earned emotional connection. Ill have to try remembering those authors. Like, for my book, Im less focused on epic twists and more on a plot building up. Id like one good one. It would be pretty entertaining. For this first book of mine, Its set more on character development, and finding solutions, and some action.
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Post by saintofm on Aug 12, 2024 4:27:43 GMT -6
When I made my statement, I was thinking along the lines of Author A gets popular, Authors B-Z take a look at aspects 4,5, and 6 when the focus was on 1, 2, and 3. In this case it was the sex with fantastical creatures.
Think Dark Age of Comic Books in the late 80's and early 90's. Batman Year 1 and Watchman were a 1-2 punch to get a new wave of popularity in comic books at the time. The problem is instead of the deep themes the authors were going for (namely in the case of Alen More), comic book writers said: Lets ramp the sex and violence up to 11! Make Everything Grim and Gritty!
While there have been some good things to come from this, there is a reason Deadpool is one of the main survivors of this era to come off unscathed and why it imploded after a while.
I think Romantsy may have had a similar problem.
In this case there were a few YA marketed books with adult range romances. Not saying kid stuff can't be mature, Batman the Animated Series and Batman: Beyond is more mature than last few live action DC films. Nor do I think kids don't want the same things adults want in their entertainment; they want romance, thrills, chills, laughs, surprises, convention norms, and so on as much as an adult viewer. However they need it at their level.
A quick google search says YA targets predominantly an age range between 12 and 18; middle school and high school. Same age range as Shonen and Shojo anime and manga. While the latter can have stuff that tries to be deep and thought provoking like Death Note and Nana, more times than not we are dealing with Bleach, Card Captor Sakura, Dragon Ball, Sailor Moon and the like. Not saying again kids this age can't handle it something more steamy, or hyper violent, but they needed to put the copy cats and the latter books in the series in a different bracket than say the target audience for Eragon.
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