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Post by Valhalla Erikson on Feb 1, 2023 0:59:47 GMT -6
Trigger Warning due to the heavy topic.
This topic has been a neverending debate between me and some of my friends in the literature community. Especially when it involves incorporating it in not just a work of fiction but say in a fantasy setting. I'm usually the sort that would avoid incorporating the concept in my stories. Yet I remember someone within my community made an argument that I feel sounds pretty valid. An author shouldn't be afraid to tackle heavy subjects. As long as it's handled with tact. If stuff like murder, abuse, and racism are fair game then writing about sexual assault should be too.
What do you guys think?
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Post by pelwrath on Feb 1, 2023 1:27:45 GMT -6
Yes, a very debate worythy topic. I wouldn't show or write such but I'd say it if it fit the story. murder, abuse, and racism have a different tag with them. Movies have them, show them all the time. Idon't remeber seeing an assault in a movie or on TV. It's like it's might happen then a fade to black situation.
'
If a writer is comfortable writing the scene, then go for it.
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Post by Valhalla Erikson on Feb 1, 2023 1:55:57 GMT -6
Here's where I'm coming from with this. In the event I do write it I'd only write the aftermath and focus on the victim healing from it. Because showcasing the attack pose a risk of glorifying it.
I do recall a story I once wrote when I was in college. It was an urban fantasy where a main character of mine was struggling trying to cope with being bitten by a vampire and becoming one. When I read the story to a fellow classmate, he mentioned that, based on the way the story was told, it sounds like the main character was recovering from a sexual assault. I had no idea that was the intention but when he explained that to me my mind was blown.
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Post by pelwrath on Feb 1, 2023 7:52:20 GMT -6
It probably wasn't your intention but with the way you wrote it, that classmate thought it was. Doesn't make what you wrote or how you wrote it wrong.
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Post by RAVENEYE on Feb 1, 2023 15:19:41 GMT -6
Hmm, yeah, I bet there will always be widely differing opinions on this. The fact remains that this traumatic occurrence is all too common among humans, so I think it's a mistake for writers to NOT tackle it, with the sole motive of stripping the blinders off blissful ignorance of people who fool themselves into believing it's not a prevalent issue and giving survivors encouragement to speak up that this crime is not okay. I'm hoping the #MeToo movement makes a huge difference in this regard.
Do I feel such assaults should be described in fiction? No. Like you say, it runs the risk of glorifying it. But also it seems disrespectful, like "I'm describing this graphically. Aren't you shocked?" Writers who include such things for shock value. Grrr... what jerks.
Yet no matter how it's described, if it's described, there will always be sick individuals who manage to glorify anything horrible, be it shooting up a school or abusing a fellow human being. So should authors pretend the issue doesn't exist in their fiction so as not to be blamed? Does one blame the knife lying idly on the kitchen counter for the crime? It has its purpose; that purpose was abused. So blaming authors doesn't make sense to me, even though I know it happens.
I'm treading a fine line here b/c my current historical WIP deals heavily with sexual assault. Does my story depict it? No way. I couldn't bring myself to write such a thing, nor would I dignify the abuser with page time nor disrespect survivors by describing such an attack. Instead, the story focuses on two different coping methods, PTSD, trauma, lasting scars and moving forward years after the fact. But because this topic is such a risky one (hard to believe it still is), I run the risk that no publisher will take it.
As far as published fiction goes, don't George RR Martin and Mark Lawrence depict the brutality of war and the worst of human behavior by including some sexual assault in their novel series? When I was reading A Song of Ice & Fire I didn't pick up on blatant descriptions, rather allusions to, but I know one reader personally who found the novels very triggering and had to stop reading them. I do remember being sickened and horrified by the brutality in the books though, so sexual assault was probably part of what caused my reaction.
So ... yeah ...
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Post by Alatariel on Feb 1, 2023 16:49:23 GMT -6
Trigger Warning due to the heavy topic. This topic has been a neverending debate between me and some of my friends in the literature community. Especially when it involves incorporating it in not just a work of fiction but say in a fantasy setting. I'm usually the sort that would avoid incorporating the concept in my stories. Yet I remember someone within my community made an argument that I feel sounds pretty valid. An author shouldn't be afraid to tackle heavy subjects. As long as it's handled with tact. If stuff like murder, abuse, and racism are fair game then writing about sexual assault should be too. What do you guys think? Long sigh.....okay this topic is one I have strong feelings about BUT I will state clearly these are just my own opinions and I accept that there are other views out there and they are valid. This in no way is meant to be taken as Law. Just my opinion and I'm fine with others disagreeing (as long as it is done with thoughtful consideration because I'm frustrated with knee-jerk opinions like folks I stumble across on social media). From my experience and from what I've seen, many depictions of SA in fiction is written...lazily? They want their characters to experience some of kind life-altering trauma (usually a woman) and they throw SA into the story because they can't possibly think of any other trauma a woman can experience that would trigger the emotional response they want from their character. One person on social media stated they wanted their female MC to feel rage and a need for vengeance and that's how he justified SA being in his story. When asked questions about the character, their trauma response, their backstory, their life, etc, this person had zero answers. He did not know his character at all. Just knew he wanted her assaulted. That is...brutally lazy and as a woman I am sick and tired of being depicted that way in fiction. Is is a common thing to happen to women? Yes. And that's reality. Has it ever happened to me? No. I'm one of the lucky ones. Do I think it's necessary for some stories? Very very very rarely. I think if authors thought hard about their characters with actual consideration they could find other ways to achieve what they wanted without depicting women as victims of SA. Just because something is a harsh reality does not mean we need it in our fiction constantly. It's similar to how many movies and books written about Black history tends to focus HEAVILY on enslavement or racism. There is more to Black history and Black experience. Is it part of their reality? Yes. Does it need to be in ALL the media that focuses on Black folks? Nope. Listening to that community, they are tired. So unbelievably tired of seeing Black trauma and Black pain. Same with the LGBTQ community. So tired of so many stories centering around LGBTQ characters revolving around their pain and suffering. TL;DR SA is reality for many people but that doesn't mean it needs to be part of our fiction unless it's absolutely necessary, like in *some* historical fiction (case: The Poppy War). It can be evidence of lazy writing and a lazy depiction of a female character (or male, male SA is just as terrible). |
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Post by Valhalla Erikson on Feb 1, 2023 17:15:40 GMT -6
Alatariel there are no words to describe how sorry I feel regarding what you went through. While I haven't experienced it myself, I've had friends who did and that usually makes me angry because nobody should do that to another human being.
One of my pet peeves with a concept like this is that you'd see this pop up in romance novels. Especially in scenarios where the victim falls for the attacker. And whenever I'd come across this I'd just roll my eyes. Because it opens a heavy double standard. Say the attacker in fiction were a fat disgusting middle aged guy. Readers would want that to suffer the worst fate imaginable. But if its a tall handsome athletically fit guy then readers would bend over backwards to paint him in a sympathetic light in fan fics.
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Post by RAVENEYE on Feb 2, 2023 12:43:50 GMT -6
One of my pet peeves with a concept like this is that you'd see this pop up in romance novels. Especially in scenarios where the victim falls for the attacker. And whenever I'd come across this I'd just roll my eyes. Because it opens a heavy double standard. Say the attacker in fiction were a fat disgusting middle aged guy. Readers would want that to suffer the worst fate imaginable. But if its a tall handsome athletically fit guy then readers would bend over backwards to paint him in a sympathetic light in fan fics. Ok, yeah, books like this should be put on the Bullshit shelf. I don't advocate for book burnings, but this makes it tempting. Hmm, brings to mind Where the Crawdads Sing. I loved that book. Loved it so much I refuse to watch the movie version. Point is, I applaud the author because the novel features a handsome, charismatic, athletically fit guy who commits SA and the reader is convinced he's a creep early on. By the time he commits his crime, the reader dreads him, yet full-on assault was unexpected so, yeah, trigger warnings with that one. Hmm...come to think of it, the book didn't come with trigger warnings, which probably harmed some folks. I really wish publishers would start including them. |
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Post by RAVENEYE on Feb 2, 2023 12:57:56 GMT -6
Trigger Warning due to the heavy topic. This topic has been a neverending debate between me and some of my friends in the literature community. Especially when it involves incorporating it in not just a work of fiction but say in a fantasy setting. I'm usually the sort that would avoid incorporating the concept in my stories. Yet I remember someone within my community made an argument that I feel sounds pretty valid. An author shouldn't be afraid to tackle heavy subjects. As long as it's handled with tact. If stuff like murder, abuse, and racism are fair game then writing about sexual assault should be too. What do you guys think? Long sigh.....okay this topic is one I have strong feelings about BUT I will state clearly these are just my own opinions and I accept that there are other views out there and they are valid. This in no way is meant to be taken as Law. Just my opinion and I'm fine with others disagreeing (as long as it is done with thoughtful consideration because I'm frustrated with knee-jerk opinions like folks I stumble across on social media). From my experience and from what I've seen, many depictions of SA in fiction is written...lazily? They want their characters to experience some of kind life-altering trauma (usually a woman) and they throw SA into the story because they can't possibly think of any other trauma a woman can experience that would trigger the emotional response they want from their character. One person on social media stated they wanted their female MC to feel rage and a need for vengeance and that's how he justified SA being in his story. When asked questions about the character, their trauma response, their backstory, their life, etc, this person had zero answers. He did not know his character at all. Just knew he wanted her assaulted. That is...brutally lazy and as a woman I am sick and tired of being depicted that way in fiction. Is is a common thing to happen to women? Yes. And that's reality. Has it ever happened to me? No. I'm one of the lucky ones. Do I think it's necessary for some stories? Very very very rarely. I think if authors thought hard about their characters with actual consideration they could find other ways to achieve what they wanted without depicting women as victims of SA. Just because something is a harsh reality does not mean we need it in our fiction constantly. It's similar to how many movies and books written about Black history tends to focus HEAVILY on enslavement or racism. There is more to Black history and Black experience. Is it part of their reality? Yes. Does it need to be in ALL the media that focuses on Black folks? Nope. Listening to that community, they are tired. So unbelievably tired of seeing Black trauma and Black pain. Same with the LGBTQ community. So tired of so many stories centering around LGBTQ characters revolving around their pain and suffering. TL;DR SA is reality for many people but that doesn't mean it needs to be part of our fiction unless it's absolutely necessary, like in *some* historical fiction (case: The Poppy War). It can be evidence of lazy writing and a lazy depiction of a female character (or male, male SA is just as terrible). This presents an angle I hadn't considered before, so thanks for that, Ala. It would be awful to have my story pigeon-holed into this group of careless books, especially since my drive to write it comes from genuine hurt. Writing this particular story comes from my own need to process the awfulness of learning that three family members and a close friend suffered systematic sexual abuse and/or SA. The knowledge has been a heavy thing to carry, and over a span of decades I've been able to witness how different personalities have coped with it in different ways. The decision to set the story in the Victorian era is deliberate for several reasons. Living in the Bible belt, I see that many Victorian attitudes still persist in regards to sexual crimes. "It didn't really happen" "Well, what did she do to encourage it?" "Keep the family secrets in the family" "Porn? What's that? Good men don't get addicted to that, so we won't acknowledge it." Hnh, yeah right. In all honesty, I'll be glad when I've finished writing this thing. It's heavy shit to deal with every day, and I'll be so glad when I can go back to writing fantasy adventure stories. Maybe that's why I've been writing fantasy shorts with humorous angles for our contests. Eesh. |
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Post by Alatariel on Feb 2, 2023 13:12:26 GMT -6
Long sigh.....okay this topic is one I have strong feelings about BUT I will state clearly these are just my own opinions and I accept that there are other views out there and they are valid. This in no way is meant to be taken as Law. Just my opinion and I'm fine with others disagreeing (as long as it is done with thoughtful consideration because I'm frustrated with knee-jerk opinions like folks I stumble across on social media). From my experience and from what I've seen, many depictions of SA in fiction is written...lazily? They want their characters to experience some of kind life-altering trauma (usually a woman) and they throw SA into the story because they can't possibly think of any other trauma a woman can experience that would trigger the emotional response they want from their character. One person on social media stated they wanted their female MC to feel rage and a need for vengeance and that's how he justified SA being in his story. When asked questions about the character, their trauma response, their backstory, their life, etc, this person had zero answers. He did not know his character at all. Just knew he wanted her assaulted. That is...brutally lazy and as a woman I am sick and tired of being depicted that way in fiction. Is is a common thing to happen to women? Yes. And that's reality. Has it ever happened to me? No. I'm one of the lucky ones. Do I think it's necessary for some stories? Very very very rarely. I think if authors thought hard about their characters with actual consideration they could find other ways to achieve what they wanted without depicting women as victims of SA. Just because something is a harsh reality does not mean we need it in our fiction constantly. It's similar to how many movies and books written about Black history tends to focus HEAVILY on enslavement or racism. There is more to Black history and Black experience. Is it part of their reality? Yes. Does it need to be in ALL the media that focuses on Black folks? Nope. Listening to that community, they are tired. So unbelievably tired of seeing Black trauma and Black pain. Same with the LGBTQ community. So tired of so many stories centering around LGBTQ characters revolving around their pain and suffering. TL;DR SA is reality for many people but that doesn't mean it needs to be part of our fiction unless it's absolutely necessary, like in *some* historical fiction (case: The Poppy War). It can be evidence of lazy writing and a lazy depiction of a female character (or male, male SA is just as terrible). This presents an angle I hadn't considered before, so thanks for that, Ala. It would be awful to have my story pigeon-holed into this group of careless books, especially since my drive to write it comes from genuine hurt. Writing this particular story comes from my own need to process the awfulness of learning that three family members and a close friend suffered systematic sexual abuse and/or SA. The knowledge has been a heavy thing to carry, and over a span of decades I've been able to witness how different personalities have coped with it in different ways. The decision to set the story in the Victorian era is deliberate for several reasons. Living in the Bible belt, I see that many Victorian attitudes still persist in regards to sexual crimes. "It didn't really happen" "Well, what did she do to encourage it?" "Keep the family secrets in the family" "Porn? What's that? Good men don't get addicted to that, so we won't acknowledge it." Hnh, yeah right. In all honesty, I'll be glad when I've finished writing this thing. It's heavy shit to deal with every day, and I'll be so glad when I can go back to writing fantasy adventure stories. Maybe that's why I've been writing fantasy shorts with humorous angles for our contests. Eesh. **hugs** It's totally valid to write from that perspective. This is a complex topic and it's an experience many of us live with...I've never been SA'd but I've been sexually harassed and harmed in other ways by men. I've been part of purity culture and grew up being told that if anything did happen it would be entirely blamed on me. It's never the man's fault. So says many with certain views. Having that ingrained as a teen was extremely difficult to work through as an adult. I'm still working through it at 36. If I was written as a character, that psychological background would greatly inform my choices and outlook. It would present itself in different ways, from my choice in clothing to my demeanor, to my response to other kinds of trauma. I admire and understand those kinds of characters and stories. <3 I just read Legendborn and the sequel Bloodmarked. Without giving anything major away, the main character is a Black girl in the south and involved in an ancient Order based around Arthurian legend. So...everyone she encounters in the Order is white and there are MANY microaggressions and outright racist comments she endures throughout the two books. Her ancestors were enslaved and that plays a huge part in her present situation. HOWEVER, the book is about liberation. About finding your power. It's about breaking tradition and forging new paths forward. So even though slavery and racism is in the story and is super important to her lived experience, it's not the entire theme of the books...if that makes sense. So you can definitely talk about the personal and social impacts of SA, how that personally harms your character and how she heals from it. I see that as a very valuable story to tell and one not to shy away from. |
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Post by RAVENEYE on Feb 2, 2023 13:24:52 GMT -6
Dang it, Ala, you gotta stop mentioning awesome-sounding books, cuz now I gotta put Legendborn on my wish list, too.  |
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Post by Alatariel on Feb 2, 2023 14:18:08 GMT -6
Dang it, Ala, you gotta stop mentioning awesome-sounding books, cuz now I gotta put Legendborn on my wish list, too.  YES YOU DO. Though the third one doesn't come out for two years so....you can wait if you want. The second one was released in November, I believe? And it took two years to come out so I'm assuming it'll take that long for #3. However, I do NOT regret reading them now. |
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Post by Valhalla Erikson on Feb 2, 2023 15:18:34 GMT -6
One of my pet peeves with a concept like this is that you'd see this pop up in romance novels. Especially in scenarios where the victim falls for the attacker. And whenever I'd come across this I'd just roll my eyes. Because it opens a heavy double standard. Say the attacker in fiction were a fat disgusting middle aged guy. Readers would want that to suffer the worst fate imaginable. But if its a tall handsome athletically fit guy then readers would bend over backwards to paint him in a sympathetic light in fan fics. Ok, yeah, books like this should be put on the Bullshit shelf. I don't advocate for book burnings, but this makes it tempting. Hmm, brings to mind Where the Crawdads Sing. I loved that book. Loved it so much I refuse to watch the movie version. Point is, I applaud the author because the novel features a handsome, charismatic, athletically fit guy who commits SA and the reader is convinced he's a creep early on. By the time he commits his crime, the reader dreads him, yet full-on assault was unexpected so, yeah, trigger warnings with that one. Hmm...come to think of it, the book didn't come with trigger warnings, which probably harmed some folks. I really wish publishers would start including them. I don't watch many movies these days. Mainly because recent films lack solid storytelling and emotional engagement with the characters and relies on themselves in being preachy and nihilistic. The novel sounds interesting. Is it on Audible by any chance? |
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Post by Valhalla Erikson on Feb 2, 2023 15:44:14 GMT -6
I've been considering updating my older story where the main character was a victim of a vampire attack and must cope with the ramifications that follow the said attack. Based on his reactions, the reactions of his loved ones, and his healing mirror those who were victims of SA. The motivation behind the story is to call out a subject that usually either gets ignored or mocked. Men can be a victim of a SA and the story doesn't make light of it. It's just as horrific as if a female falls victim to it..
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Post by Alatariel on Feb 2, 2023 17:09:50 GMT -6
I've been considering updating my older story where the main character was a victim of a vampire attack and must cope with the ramifications that follow the said attack. Based on his reactions, the reactions of his loved ones, and his healing mirror those who were victims of SA. The motivation behind the story is to call out a subject that usually either gets ignored or mocked. Men can be a victim of a SA and the story doesn't make light of it. It's just as horrific as if a female falls victim to it.. I think that's a an interesting way to explore healing from trauma. It sounds like it rang true for some of your readers. It's a bodily violation so it makes sense that it would mirror SA. And I agree, whether it happens to a man, woman, or non-binary person, SA is horrific and painful and traumatizing. |
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