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Post by RAVENEYE on May 6, 2021 9:55:45 GMT -6
Ah, sounds like a bad encounter with major Deus Ex Machina. That's terribly discouraging, especially after being tempted to start reading the series. I've heard so much praise about these books and know several people who swear by them. So it's sad to learn that a renowned author ended the series with such choices. Was this what Jordan had planned to do? Would he be turning in his grave? I gotta step in... I can understand this beef. I hear you. Definitely. However...Brandon Sanderson did not invent this ending. He has ALL the extensive notes from Jordan and worked closely with his wife, Harriet. Jordan knew exactly how he wanted the series to end. Sanderson actually talks about this on his podcast Writing Excuses. There were some *minor* character choices/traits he was allowed to change but even tiny details were outlined in Jordan's notes, like the slap between a male character and a female character that Sanderson HATED writing but did so because Jordan was adamant it had to happen. Sanderson also got to speak with and meet with Jordan before he passed away to hammer out details. SO...don't blame Sanderson. ALSO, the end of the series is EPIC in so many ways please don't let this one thing discourage you from the entire series. PLEAAASE. (Also Rand chooses to travel the land in his new body because as the Dragon Reborn he was literally kept in palaces the entire time since everyone and their mother wanted him dead. He couldn't go anywhere or do anything without being recognized. It was so much pressure all the time and he was barely 20 years old. Not to mention the growing madness thanks to the taint on the one power, which he can now use freely. So he wants to experience life in a simple easy unnoticed way. He doesn't want to be this magical being to everyone, so he'll only use his power for small things at the moment. Personally, I was certain he'd eventually come out to his father but for now...he'd finally do something for HIM. The entire 12 (13??) book series is about how he's The Chosen One and must sacrifice himself to the greater good and how nothing he wanted mattered. So I don't blame him at all for taking a little "me time".) Oooo! Okay, I like this tennis match between takes on the book. Now I'm really curious to know what conclusion I'd draw. Considering adding the series to me wish list. And at least this series is FINISHED, for goodness sake. *coughMARTIN* *coughROTHFUSS* *coughRAWN* |
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Post by Alatariel on May 6, 2021 12:32:39 GMT -6
Exactly! RAVENEYE you gotta at least give it a try and if you don't like it, totally fair. Honestly, the biggest reason I love it is because it was my very first fantasy series ever. So even though it has plenty of flaws, it holds a special place in my heart. I also kind of love the character growth throughout the series. Highly recommend the audiobooks. They breeze by some of the boring parts. Jordan has a tendency to overly describe things like clothing, setting, and side stuff. But the world building is amazing. The Seanchan, as Jib mentioned, is a whole huge nation full of problematic things but I can forgive it as a reader because nations aren't meant to be perfect in books. And they're like...the bad guys for a reason....I found the slave part of their culture to be a fantastic way to create a dichotomy between the main continent and this new invading nation. I won't give anything away because it will send chills down your spine and I don't want spoil it! |
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Post by RAVENEYE on May 7, 2021 22:21:14 GMT -6
Exactly! RAVENEYE you gotta at least give it a try and if you don't like it, totally fair. Honestly, the biggest reason I love it is because it was my very first fantasy series ever. So even though it has plenty of flaws, it holds a special place in my heart. I also kind of love the character growth throughout the series. Highly recommend the audiobooks. They breeze by some of the boring parts. Jordan has a tendency to overly describe things like clothing, setting, and side stuff. But the world building is amazing. The Seanchan, as Jib mentioned, is a whole huge nation full of problematic things but I can forgive it as a reader because nations aren't meant to be perfect in books. And they're like...the bad guys for a reason....I found the slave part of their culture to be a fantastic way to create a dichotomy between the main continent and this new invading nation. I won't give anything away because it will send chills down your spine and I don't want spoil it! Aw, nice! I feel that way about Melanie Rawn's Dragon Prince and Dragon Scroll series. The first fantasy series I read that was *worth* reading. The world building was so-so, but the magic system and the enormous cast of walk-off-the-page characters made the series unforgettable. It's the massive saga that got me to writing my Falcons series. So I definitely have a special gilded shelf in my heart for those books. At least, I *think* I would still like the series if I read it again. |
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Post by RAVENEYE on May 21, 2021 9:43:36 GMT -6
Okay so the book(s) I hate are rather popular in YA fiction and honestly it's everything I hate about the genre. I love YA. I write YA fantasy. But these books made me so angry and I can rant for ages about them. 1) The Shadow and Bone Trilogy by Leigh Bardugo 2) Trite, cliche, stereotypical...I made it halfway through book 2 before throwing it down forever. I hoped for more. I desperately wanted there to be more. But nope. She didn't subvert expectation. She didn't make the antagonist interesting, but she almost did. She didn't make the main character likable but she almost did. She didn't make the love interest worthy, but she almost did. The world building and prose are the only good things. They kept me interested and hopeful but nope. I ended up deeply hating the main character and her gutless choices. I hated her love interest which I wanted to be GONE but ended up coming back and once I realized oh...oh...this guy is the person we're supposed to root for? Oh dear God. And then the antagonist became the most cliche obnoxious moustache twirling all consuming evil. So yea. Terrible "best selling" series. I'm quoting this older post to ask if you've bothered watching the Netflix series and what you thought of it. Kinda off topic, but not. So my husband loved the series, and now he wants to read the books, so I told him Ala hated the book so be warned. He said, bless him, "It's a unique idea." To which I replied, "But not." He said, "The Fold is new." I said, "Yep, the Fold is a cool take on common old tropes." So after having watched Season 1, I'm wondering why Netflix bothered converting it to film. There are dozens of elements in the story that are in thousands of other fantasy stories. So why this one? Also, just saying, the two main actors drove me frigging bonkers. The villain, obviously, is a tried and true actor who did his job well and, to me, made the villain a guy I love to hate and hate to love. But those two main actors, jeez, had they been to acting school yet? I kept thinking, "Is Netflix losing money--or did they spend too much on location and special effects--that they'd cast these two people from some amateur waaaaaay-off Broadway university theatre?" For the first three episodes, I couldn't even watch them. I played with my cat and listened to their scenes instead, b/c they were so fake. That lip-licking habit the main girl kept doing was like "I have to fill this silence with something until I remember my line, so I'll lick my lips, but I don't even know I'm doing this annoying body language thing." AAAAAAARGH!!! But then there were moments of brilliance that got me really engaged in the story itself, but not until halfway through the series. And then that cliffhanger in the final episode. I guess I'll stick around for Season 2. So have you watched it yet, Ala? |
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Post by Jib on May 22, 2021 14:25:03 GMT -6
Okay so the book(s) I hate are rather popular in YA fiction and honestly it's everything I hate about the genre. I love YA. I write YA fantasy. But these books made me so angry and I can rant for ages about them. 1) The Shadow and Bone Trilogy by Leigh Bardugo 2) Trite, cliche, stereotypical...I made it halfway through book 2 before throwing it down forever. I hoped for more. I desperately wanted there to be more. But nope. She didn't subvert expectation. She didn't make the antagonist interesting, but she almost did. She didn't make the main character likable but she almost did. She didn't make the love interest worthy, but she almost did. The world building and prose are the only good things. They kept me interested and hopeful but nope. I ended up deeply hating the main character and her gutless choices. I hated her love interest which I wanted to be GONE but ended up coming back and once I realized oh...oh...this guy is the person we're supposed to root for? Oh dear God. And then the antagonist became the most cliche obnoxious moustache twirling all consuming evil. So yea. Terrible "best selling" series. I'm quoting this older post to ask if you've bothered watching the Netflix series and what you thought of it. Kinda off topic, but not. So my husband loved the series, and now he wants to read the books, so I told him Ala hated the book so be warned. He said, bless him, "It's a unique idea." To which I replied, "But not." He said, "The Fold is new." I said, "Yep, the Fold is a cool take on common old tropes." So after having watched Season 1, I'm wondering why Netflix bothered converting it to film. There are dozens of elements in the story that are in thousands of other fantasy stories. So why this one? Also, just saying, the two main actors drove me frigging bonkers. The villain, obviously, is a tried and true actor who did his job well and, to me, made the villain a guy I love to hate and hate to love. But those two main actors, jeez, had they been to acting school yet? I kept thinking, "Is Netflix losing money--or did they spend too much on location and special effects--that they'd cast these two people from some amateur waaaaaay-off Broadway university theatre?" For the first three episodes, I couldn't even watch them. I played with my cat and listened to their scenes instead, b/c they were so fake. That lip-licking habit the main girl kept doing was like "I have to fill this silence with something until I remember my line, so I'll lick my lips, but I don't even know I'm doing this annoying body language thing." AAAAAAARGH!!! But then there were moments of brilliance that got me really engaged in the story itself, but not until halfway through the series. And then that cliffhanger in the final episode. I guess I'll stick around for Season 2. So have you watched it yet, Ala? I actually really enjoyed the Netflix series! It is super trope-y in some ways and you're right, Alina and Mal are both lukewarm actors at best. I feel like they do get a little better later on, at least? From what I've gathered, the series is much better than the book series (which I have not read). If it's as bad as Ala is saying, I'm not sure if I could sit through them. The special effects were awesome, though... and I agree, the villain was quite effective. I also just loved the atmosphere inside of the Breach. So creepy! If I had a complaint about at least the Netflix series it'd simply be that the whole thing was just so violent. There was just so much in the way of grotesque and icky things that happened. I guess it's realistic, but do we really need every gory detail?  I run into this problem a lot with Netflix series, though. I guess they don't need to censor themselves like TV things, so they feel free to add in a lot of otherwise shocking violence.
Are there any other series that y'all liked the TV show or movie for but not the books? I feel like the opposite is true often for me, but it's rare when the cinema version is better.
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Post by havekrillwhaletravel on May 23, 2021 4:02:36 GMT -6
I actually really enjoyed the Netflix series! It is super trope-y in some ways and you're right, Alina and Mal are both lukewarm actors at best. I feel like they do get a little better later on, at least? From what I've gathered, the series is much better than the book series (which I have not read). If it's as bad as Ala is saying, I'm not sure if I could sit through them. The special effects were awesome, though... and I agree, the villain was quite effective. I also just loved the atmosphere inside of the Breach. So creepy! If I had a complaint about at least the Netflix series it'd simply be that the whole thing was just so violent. There was just so much in the way of grotesque and icky things that happened. I guess it's realistic, but do we really need every gory detail? I run into this problem a lot with Netflix series, though. I guess they don't need to censor themselves like TV things, so they feel free to add in a lot of otherwise shocking violence. Are there any other series that y'all liked the TV show or movie for but not the books? I feel like the opposite is true often for me, but it's rare when the cinema version is better.
For me, the only example I can think of is Fight Club. The book is okay, but the movie is so much better. Fincher's style and the three main leads add so much to the source material. |
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Post by RAVENEYE on May 23, 2021 11:05:34 GMT -6
I actually really enjoyed the Netflix series! It is super trope-y in some ways and you're right, Alina and Mal are both lukewarm actors at best. I feel like they do get a little better later on, at least? From what I've gathered, the series is much better than the book series (which I have not read). If it's as bad as Ala is saying, I'm not sure if I could sit through them. The special effects were awesome, though... and I agree, the villain was quite effective. I also just loved the atmosphere inside of the Breach. So creepy! If I had a complaint about at least the Netflix series it'd simply be that the whole thing was just so violent. There was just so much in the way of grotesque and icky things that happened. I guess it's realistic, but do we really need every gory detail? I run into this problem a lot with Netflix series, though. I guess they don't need to censor themselves like TV things, so they feel free to add in a lot of otherwise shocking violence. Are there any other series that y'all liked the TV show or movie for but not the books? I feel like the opposite is true often for me, but it's rare when the cinema version is better.
For me, the only example I can think of is Fight Club. The book is okay, but the movie is so much better. Fincher's style and the three main leads add so much to the source material. Hmm, I can't think of a series I liked better. I want to say The Witcher, but I don't recommend it if violence is an issue. And nudity. Lots of nudity in that one. Not young adult at all, but full-on rated R. Anyway, I wish Netflix or somebody would make a series of Jay Kristoff's Nevernight series. Loved the first book enough to buy the entire series in hardcover by pre-order. Yet I've only read book 1. Can't wait to read the rest of the books. He usually writes YA, but I'm not sure I'd classify Nevernight as YA (despite the main characters being young) because of language and explicit sex scenes. Like, whoa. BUT somebody needs to give Kristoff's books some cinema love. |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2021 17:53:28 GMT -6
Twilight. Twilight 2. Twilight 3 and Twilight 4. I don't even remember the names.
So here's the thing. Twilight gets a bad rap, and deservedly so. But it wasn't poorly written. Not really. If it was poorly written, then it wouldn't have sold so much. I would love to write as bad as Twilight. If I could write half that bad, I'd have sold millions by now.
No, it wasn't poorly written. It was actually amazingly written. Why? Because it made me want to read the next page. I hated Bella or whatever her name was. I hated Edward. I hated the Cullen Family. I liked Jacob, and he got the shaft.
But I liked the world, the mythos, and the way she wrote made me want to see what happened next. She was leading up to something big. A big confrontation that I could see coming, and I wanted to see it. So delving into the world, a new take on vampirism and werewolves, and I liked all that. (Hated Bella, hated her so much.)
I read all four books. And then the end came. And nothing happened. Nothing. Big, huge build up....nothing happened. Because Bella is a Mary Sue.
I was so...disappointed. I pushed through, watching all these characters I hated rag on the one character I liked, and there wasn't even a climactic ending. Just...no. Just no.
Twilight is proof positive that your main characters can be unlikable and you can still make a story people will want to read if you know how to make them want to turn the page.
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Post by Valhalla Erikson on Sept 14, 2021 18:31:10 GMT -6
I wouldn't go as far as to say despise. Irritated at it's wasted potential more likely.
The Supervillainy Saga
The worst example of a power fantasy story I've ever read. Filled with nothing but info dumps and repetitive wording, with a main character I find it very hard to get emotionally invested in.
The series represent everything I hate about villain centered superhero novels because the writer would tend to amp up the main character's competency while making the heroic characters incapable of doing their job because the author say so.
What's worse is the sexism where female characters flaunt themselves at the MC, despite the fact that he did little to deserve it. And the one female character, who had potential to be a strong character, ends up being reduced to a damsel in distress.
I'm a completionist at heart so I had to truck along just to see how the journey ends.
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Post by RAVENEYE on Oct 3, 2021 11:24:22 GMT -6
I wouldn't go as far as to say despise. Irritated at it's wasted potential more likely. The Supervillainy Saga
The worst example of a power fantasy story I've ever read. Filled with nothing but info dumps and repetitive wording, with a main character I find it very hard to get emotionally invested in. The series represent everything I hate about villain centered superhero novels because the writer would tend to amp up the main character's competency while making the heroic characters incapable of doing their job because the author say so. What's worse is the sexism where female characters flaunt themselves at the MC, despite the fact that he did little to deserve it. And the one female character, who had potential to be a strong character, ends up being reduced to a damsel in distress. I'm a completionist at heart so I had to truck along just to see how the journey ends. Ok, yeah, I think I'll avoid that one then.  You've more dedication than I am. I doubt I would've kept trucking along.  |
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Post by Mazulla on Oct 3, 2021 14:00:02 GMT -6
I will preface this by saying I have read a few other Neil Gaiman books, namely Stardust and Norse Mythology. I especially enjoyed Norse Mythology and thought Stardust was pretty good.
But I did not like Neverwhere.
It may come down to taste, but I thought the world was overly whimsical and too crazy. I liked Alice in Wonderland, so maybe I didn't jive with this (darker?) rendition, but nevertheless, I couldn't get into it.
Mainly, I remember despising the main character, Richard. He was flat, and uninteresting, and as if he was just... there, being dragged around by the other characters (he was from our world, not Neverwhere). He was very non-reactive to the whimsical environment he was thrown in. Then, I guess there was a relationship being formed between him and the main girl in the story. Not only did I not notice any chemistry between them, I was initially under the impression she was described as a girl (possibly in her teens?), while I thought Richard was in his late twenties or so; I was a bit surprised when there started being a few hints at a relationship.
That I remember, that's the gist of it. I got about half-way through before skimming to the end.
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Post by Valhalla Erikson on Oct 3, 2021 14:32:18 GMT -6
I will preface this by saying I have read a few other Neil Gaiman books, namely Stardust and Norse Mythology. I especially enjoyed Norse Mythology and thought Stardust was pretty good. But I did not like Neverwhere. It may come down to taste, but I thought the world was overly whimsical and too crazy. I liked Alice in Wonderland, so maybe I didn't jive with this (darker?) rendition, but nevertheless, I couldn't get into it. Mainly, I remember despising the main character, Richard. He was flat, and uninteresting, and as if he was just... there, being dragged around by the other characters (he was from our world, not Neverwhere). He was very non-reactive to the whimsical environment he was thrown in. Then, I guess there was a relationship being formed between him and the main girl in the story. Not only did I not notice any chemistry between them, I was initially under the impression she was described as a girl (possibly in her teens?), while I thought Richard was in his late twenties or so; I was a bit surprised when there started being a few hints at a relationship. That I remember, that's the gist of it. I got about half-way through before skimming to the end. One of the reasons why I prefer his short stories. Anything outside of them I felt was slow paced. Like the story would drag on before it'll eventually get to the good stuff. But by then I'd have checked out. Gaiman has an otherworldly imagination but, most of his main characters tend to be dull when compared to the more eccentric ensemble. |
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Post by RAVENEYE on Oct 3, 2021 15:25:37 GMT -6
I will preface this by saying I have read a few other Neil Gaiman books, namely Stardust and Norse Mythology. I especially enjoyed Norse Mythology and thought Stardust was pretty good. But I did not like Neverwhere. It may come down to taste, but I thought the world was overly whimsical and too crazy. I liked Alice in Wonderland, so maybe I didn't jive with this (darker?) rendition, but nevertheless, I couldn't get into it. Mainly, I remember despising the main character, Richard. He was flat, and uninteresting, and as if he was just... there, being dragged around by the other characters (he was from our world, not Neverwhere). He was very non-reactive to the whimsical environment he was thrown in. Then, I guess there was a relationship being formed between him and the main girl in the story. Not only did I not notice any chemistry between them, I was initially under the impression she was described as a girl (possibly in her teens?), while I thought Richard was in his late twenties or so; I was a bit surprised when there started being a few hints at a relationship. That I remember, that's the gist of it. I got about half-way through before skimming to the end. One of the reasons why I prefer his short stories. Anything outside of them I felt was slow paced. Like the story would drag on before it'll eventually get to the good stuff. But by then I'd have checked out. Gaiman has an otherworldly imagination but, most of his main characters tend to be dull when compared to the more eccentric ensemble. Agreed. I read Neverwhere years ago as part of LegendFire's then-book club, and it was the first thing I had ever read of Gaiman's. I remember being charmed by the richness of his imagination, even if I didn't like the book much. I can't remember why I didn't really get into the book, but it was probably for the reasons you name, Mazulla. I own Stardust, but haven't read it yet. After watching the movie a dozen times by now, I worry I know the story too well for the book to keep me interested. Though I should at least give it a shot, eh? And, yes, I can't get enough of his short stories. So bizarre and challenging. I have collections Smoke and Mirrors and Fragile Things. Any recommendations for others of his collected shorts? |
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Post by Valhalla Erikson on Oct 3, 2021 16:07:52 GMT -6
I'm more partial to The Sandman myself. Primarily because of the innovative pantheon he produced there. And it had the best version of Death I've ever seen. Outside of Discworld's of course.
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Post by Alatariel on Oct 3, 2021 16:44:22 GMT -6
Twilight. Twilight 2. Twilight 3 and Twilight 4. I don't even remember the names. So here's the thing. Twilight gets a bad rap, and deservedly so. But it wasn't poorly written. Not really. If it was poorly written, then it wouldn't have sold so much. I would love to write as bad as Twilight. If I could write half that bad, I'd have sold millions by now. No, it wasn't poorly written. It was actually amazingly written. Why? Because it made me want to read the next page. I hated Bella or whatever her name was. I hated Edward. I hated the Cullen Family. I liked Jacob, and he got the shaft. But I liked the world, the mythos, and the way she wrote made me want to see what happened next. She was leading up to something big. A big confrontation that I could see coming, and I wanted to see it. So delving into the world, a new take on vampirism and werewolves, and I liked all that. (Hated Bella, hated her so much.) I read all four books. And then the end came. And nothing happened. Nothing. Big, huge build up....nothing happened. Because Bella is a Mary Sue. I was so...disappointed. I pushed through, watching all these characters I hated rag on the one character I liked, and there wasn't even a climactic ending. Just...no. Just no. Twilight is proof positive that your main characters can be unlikable and you can still make a story people will want to read if you know how to make them want to turn the page. I can talk about Twilight for HOURS. It's a good binge read and it definitely does a good job sucking you into the world. I don't know why it makes readers so invested so quickly, but it does. There's no denying that it's addicting. And I totally agree about the ending. All that build up and NOTHING. At least the movie shows us what happens inside Alice's head so we get SOME action, even if it wasn't real. Sigh. The love/hate relationship I have with Twilight is...unheathly. I didn't read it as a teen or young adult. I read it a few years ago because I just had a baby and needed brain candy fluff. It did the job. You know the worst thing they did to Jacob? Having him imprint on a BABY. *shudder* That's...horrific to me. WHY STEPHANIE WHY?! I thought many of the side characters were way more interesting than Bella and Edward, that was for sure. I'd rather read a book about Rosalie or Alice or the Denali family or ANYONE ELSE. |
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I run into this problem a lot with Netflix series, though. I guess they don't need to censor themselves like TV things, so they feel free to add in a lot of otherwise shocking violence. 
You've more dedication than I am. I doubt I would've kept trucking along. 
You add them to your profile as you do them around the forum.
